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PostPosted: 30 Jan 2003, 23:43 
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Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
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good article........

Thoughts anyone?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/859749.asp?0ql=c9p


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 04:09 
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Joined: 17 Jun 2002, 09:37
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Although I agree that there seems to be a trend that projects recently go way over budget, I hate the fact that reporters always talk about the "Cold War Threat" We all know what that was like, In my opinion, if sh*t would have hit the fan during the cold war, the only thing left would have been some radioactive swamp land in Nevada...My point being, do reporters not think about China? China has so many troops, in my opinion, we need a larger military, and we need new weapon systems like the F22, JFS, Comanche, and other systems that I'm sure we have developed but are classified (a la whatever production ACFT the "predator" led to). Even operations like Iraq would be benefited by these new weapon systems. I work at Depot, all the ACFT that are working on here, F15, C5, C141, C130, & C17, all of the ACFT with the exception of the C17 is old, the F15A-D Models require so much work now, I can't go into detail for obvious reasons, but they can't suck much more life out of these models, especially A & B models, C & D models have a few years left in them before we start to see some of the major issues we have with the A & B Models. It seems to me that the public perception, to include reporters, is that because we have had the B52 around for over 50 years, and the Soviet Union no longer exists that we can do that with any weapon system and still lead the pack. We, the USA cannot get complacent. The world in my opinion is more dangerous now than during the Cold War. During the Cold War the US kept its allies in check, and the USSR kept its "allies" or more accurately its "Puppet Governments" in check. Who does this now? Look at the current Iraq & North Korea situations. Iraq the US created in a round about way, BUT, in my opinion, I don't think I Iraq would play as many games as it does now 15 to 20 years ago. Yes, they fought Iran, and think they still would have invaded Kuwait, but who knows. North Korea, if the USSR was still around, I don't believe that North Korea would be acting as crazy as it has lately. China can't even seem to get North Korea to give up its nuclear program. Just my thoughts, but the American people, and it seems the government have an obvious "God" Complex when it comes to the rest of the world, yes we are the only "superpower" left, but when you have the only "superpower" deploying its military in every corner of the world, Yes it is "power projection" but at the same time it is spreading our military so thinly that who knows what would happen. I would be willing to bet, if you ask the common American if we had troops in Bosnia, most would not know, or even care. I could go on for hours, this is a touchy subject to me, not only because I have friends in the military still, not because I am a vet, mostly because I love my country, we have our share of problems, but the US is a great country, we just need to open our eyes to the threats of today, it isn't only Terrorists or rogue states, no matter how broke the Russian military is, they still have hundreds if not thousands of nukes, and a very large military. China is huge also. Ok, I gotta step off my soap box...sorry about the long post...

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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 12:11 
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I've said this before ,but as much as I love Commanche, it's missions seem to be dissapearing. UCAVs and UAVs continue to progress(slowly)and the armed recon role will go to them. The RAH-66 will be stealthy, but for what? Do RF SAMs ever engage helos? Seems to me anything that emits(even blinking) on the battlefield will be in BIG trouble VERY quickly as better weapons emerge with better tactics. The Army is already looking into an unmaned combat helo. A UCAV may not be able to tell a school bus full of kids apart from a bus full Al Qaeda, but as we all remember an Apache pilot couldent tell an English APC from an Iraqi APC (and his COs didnt care about the pilots uncertainty of that target) and the results are well know by those of us here. These days it seems a human pilot/CP gunner would be using the same sensors (many of them perhaps offboard) as an UCAV so I dont think ID-ing a target would be much different for either. I say we are still building Apaches, lets build more, benifit from economy of scale, and give them more protection from MANPADS( maybee the only REAL threat to a battlefield chopper other than gun systems) with DIRCM type systems, and move on to unmanned systems for this down and dirty very close combat stuff that helos tend to get into. my two cents, who's up next?

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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 13:49 
"and give them more protection from MANPADS( maybee the only REAL threat to a battlefield chopper other than gun systems) "

LOL, you obviously havn't read the story about the Apache flight that was engaged with ARTILLERY during ODS.

As crazy as it sounds that is a pretty good idea. One of the few really witty things the Iraqi's did during the whole war.



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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 13:49 
BTW, i agree with every single word Prk3 typed out.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 13:51 
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Joined: 06 Aug 2002, 11:53
Posts: 738
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

LOL, you obviously havn't read the story about the Apache flight that was engaged with ARTILLERY during ODS.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Got a link to that story? That sounds like a good one.

Ted

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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 23:36 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
Posts: 2802
COmmanche's, Real stealthy til lyour caught by the Old Mark 2 Highly Calibrated Eyeballs of a bored Viper.

I chased one, one time over UTTR, Caught something out of the Corner of my EYE. Snoozed Radar, Got Clearance from Range Control, Droped in behind him at 1000 Feet ABove the deck, He is moving pretty good. I get approximately 1200 Meters behind him and hold him to a 50 Knot closure to about 600 meters. I boresight My Radar and Flooded him...LOL His auto Chaff Goes off, a Small Jink in the Airframe and i Scream Fox 2...LMAO LOL he hit a hardbank and Screamed Mother Fu&*^ Kicken about 8 Flares. I hit the Burner and went straight up To 10k Laughing my ass off...OH well another Sucker i got the drop on that day...<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>



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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 23:43 
What kinda helo was it Mudd?

Choppers do not want to be playing where the big dogs(Fighters) are, that's for damned sure ;)



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2003, 23:50 
Ted, i don't have a link, i read it some time ago, but here's the what i remember.....

A flight of Apaches(i think it was six) is on a night attack in the desert. I believe it was against one of the Republican Guard units.

The Apaches go into a hover about 4km away from the armored vehicles(pretty standard tactic), and begin to fire Hellfires.

The Iraqi commander at the scene calls a artillery strike on the Apache's grid, and starts raining shells in the middile of their flight.

The Apache's bugged the hell out fast without loss, they didn't even figure out what hit them at the time.

When they got back to base they had several fragments in them, and it was determined it was an artillery strike from the collected shell splinters.

If they were anything but Apache's we would have probably lost a few of them in that encounter.

It's been a while since i read this, so i might be off a little on the details, but that is the gist of it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2003, 01:21 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
Posts: 2802
It was a Commanche. Uttr houses severel USAF and USarmy installations and ranges Most notibly Dugway Proving grounds and Michael AAF. also an electronic Battlefield.

What the 66 was doing out there was beyond me. Thats why we have Range Control centers..they Deconflict the Flights. Why i was allowed to go check it out was beyond me... We Ofton have stray General Aviation that crosses the ranges. Eather way, its a Gun track/Tape I cherish<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> it goes well with all the Full bird Blackmail Files..ask M&M he knows how it works with Cocky Capt's and The Senior Buzzards.

Heres some public info..

<img src="http://www.hill.af.mil/uttr/airspace.jpg" border=0>

http://www.hill.af.mil/uttr/location.htm




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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2003, 07:56 
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Joined: 06 Aug 2002, 11:53
Posts: 738
Thanks, Sniper. That was quick thinking on the Iraqi's part. I accidenty put a helo in the same area an artillery strike was due to arrive in a computer game once (and yes, I do know computer games are nothing like reality, LOL!). It wasn't pretty.

Ted

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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2003, 16:04 
That action by the Iraqi commander is definitely something that any combat soldier with aspirations for leadership should be well aware of.

His was a perfect example of using what you have available to accomplish the mission at hand regardless of the threat.

Fortunately he was apparently the only good leader in the entire Iraqi army. If the Iraqi's have any brians then this guy is probably a general by now.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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