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Well, I am now fully entrenched as a SUPT IP. I've been doing my best to motivate the studs and put a little realworld application to all the seemingly mindless stuff I'm required to teach them in the 38. Anyhow, I do have a beef with today's batch of SNAPs:
About a month ago I was asked to go talk to the students in the Tweet squadron about the Hawg and fighters in general. These students were a week out from their track select. After talking to them for a few minutes I asked them who wanted to fly fighters. Out of 13 dudes, guess how many raised their hands?? 3.
I was so disgusted I nearly walked out. I hate to talk about the brown shoe days (I was actually commissioned a couple years after the brown shoes went away), but when I was a stud we had 28 dudes and 21 wanted fighters. I guess the simple fact that there are NO fighter pilots as Tweet IPs may explain it. No offense to heavy drivers, but it just irks me to no end to see dudes jump up and down and pee their pants when they get a KC-10 or a C-21 at assignment night. Big freakin deal.
My chance to vent. Thanks for listening...

"Warthog 30 has left the building..."

maybe they are using the airforce to prepare for a good job at american airlines--sick.

Ya never know Warthog 30... what potential these young people have in them. Trainem the way you expect them to perform and pass off to them that tactical mindset.

I never wanted fighters, i wanted to mow Jungles in Helo's I spent the rest of my career in various fighters...never touched a helo stick...

Funny thing about the job...It makes us who we become. Not what we hope to be.
I have no regrets. I make about six times more that what the "Bus" drivers do by applying my fighter knowledge in the defense industry. I'll be probably retireing real soon. takeing up my personal intrest in helos. cause the airforce gave me the skills to make it happen.


Edited by - MrMudd on Aug 24 2003 07:28 AM

I've come across a number of drivers who wanted to go that route (heavies, mainly talons). They say it's better as far as career progression. You become an aircraft commander and that helps with promotions.

Methinx it's the quest for per diems at play, lol.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."

The aircraft commander thing doesn't make sense. If you go to fighters you are an AC right away whereas if you go to heavies it's at least 3 years before you're an AC.

Snipe, you can have the perdiem. I prefer not being gone 260 days a year.

I guess for me it boils down to the fact that when I was growing up I never said, "When I grow up I wanna be a tanker pilot."

Just my thoughts...

"Warthog 30 has left the building..."

Being a pilot wouldn't automatically make you an aircraft commander. The heavy pilots have crew that they are responsible for. It's that sort of authority/responsiblity/leadership thing that I was refering to. As a fighter pilot, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, you work your way up through the normal flight, squadron, group, wing commander slots.

Hey, Hog30
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Out of 13 dudes, guess how many raised their hands?? 3.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

If it makes you happy, I'll be a fighter pilot!
I am near-sighted and have 20/200 in the right eye, but still... pick me! Pick Me!...

'Gotta question:
Can I switch MOS's(<i>for lack of a better term, forgot what the Air Force calls em'</i>)?
For example: I'm a WSO and after the duty is done I wanna switch to intel...

AFSC Air Force Specialty Code

And yes, you can cross train.

Thanx for the input SSR.

BTW, I just thought of something:

Some person just gets out of UPT and they go to their IP:
IP:<i>So and So, You get the F-22 track</i>
So and So:<i>Oh man, I wanted to be a trash hauler! </i>

They might actually forcibly assign fighter tracks.

Being a pilot wouldn't automatically make you an aircraft commander. The heavy pilots have crew that they are responsible for. It's that sort of authority/responsiblity/leadership thing that I was refering to. As a fighter pilot, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, you work your way up through the normal flight, squadron, group, wing commander slots.

Hey, SSR. I think there is a little confusion about the process here. If you look on any A-10 pilot's(or any fighter for that matter) OPR you'll see the title "A-10 Aircraft Commander". In the heavy world you are a copilot until you upgrade to AC. In fact, if you are a fighter pilot you are automatically an aircraft commander. In a fighter you are the AC from day one. I think we're thinking of 2 different things, but I'd put any fighter pilot's records up against a heavy guy's any day of the week. In a heavy you get "supervised" for a few years until you're an AC while as a fighter pilot you're trusted with the airplane from day one.

I also think there is some confusion regarding career progression. As a fighter pilot you upgrade from Wingman to 2 Ship Flight Lead, 4 Ship Flight Lead, IP, SANDY, FAC, SEFE, etc. etc. Flight commander, group and wing commanders are all jobs and not flying certifications. In fact our group commander at my last job was only qualified as a wingman for his entire 2 year tour. In other words, as a Colonel he was only qualified to fly as a wingman and not as a flight lead.

Any way you slice it it is not an advantage to fly heavies. In fact, fighter pilots are more respected in general. (I am prepared to take some barbs on that last statement, but it's true.)

Hope this helps. Still looking for a valid argument for choosing heavies...



"Warthog 30 has left the building..."

For my part, i would prefer an aircraft that can deliver ordnance.



"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

In the next generation the manned fighter <i>might</i> be a thing of the past, or more realistically, down-graded.





Edited by - Tritonal on Aug 27 2003 4:31 PM

Warthog30, I can tell you a little about why some people choose heavies over fighters.


Community is a big thing. Maybe to you it sounds wimpy, but it makes a big difference to a lot of people when you can come to work and people are nice to each other and you aren't constantly playing the "who's tougher" game. Quality of life issues there are huge there. To put it simply, you carnies are mean, and we don't like you. (being fasecious here <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) No fighter pilots in Tweets? I only had one T-1 guy, and he flew B-1s.

AC in heavies vs single seaters: When you are an AC in a single seat, you are in charge of only yourself. If you are lead, then you are in charge of your wingman. Being an AC in a heavy is comparable to being lead in a fighter. Yes, as a CP you are "supervised," but you have individual duties and responsibilities that no AC is going to hold your hand and do for you. For example, I am shortly going to be flying KC-135s in Kadena. As a CP, it will be my responsibility each flight to manage our fuel (both distributing to my receivers and balanced within the a/c), make all appropriate calculations (wind corrections, roll-out pts, speed adjustments, etc, If you haven't seen what a tanker does to make a rendezvous happen, I highly recomend trying to sandbag a ride on one of our form rides. And from what I understand our refueling sorties are "Air Refueling for Preschoolers), and get and give the follow-on clearances to my receivers. All this I do <i>without</i> my AC telling to do it, and if it's busy, without him even knowing. He is monitoring what boom and I are doing and communicating with the receivers as he flies.

Leadership experience: There is a difference between leading several other highly trained, highly motivated individuals to do something, and leading some recent high school grads just learning to deal with life and trying to figure out what's going on. This is the difference between single seaters and crew a/c. You are in charge of making sure not just you are ready, but also your boom operator who may have been out partying last night, or is dealing with the first year of marriage, or who's neighbor is loud until late and he can't get decent sleep. If you fly a C-5, you may have a crew of 12. And it is YOUR responsibility to make sure all 12 are ready to go. And I don't say this because I'm bashing the enlisted force, but they don't get paid the big bucks we do, and they probably didn't "fulfill a lifelong dream" by becoming a load master. There are some who really hate being in the af, hate what they do, and YOU have to make sure it all happens correctly. Both OPRs say "Aircraft Commander" but what you did and what the heavy guy did to earn that title are just different.

Another thing to remember that there are different kinds of flying. Flying to you is maneuverability. It's speed. When I turned around and saw a big white plane at track select, it was a slap in the face. If I couldn't fly an A-10, then I wanted something else that did cool stuff (helos). The T-1 was like a prison sentence to me. BUT, there are different kinds of flying. By the end of nav phase, I was seeking out challenging approaches because it was fun to me to do them. I HATED instruments in Tweets. Every time my wheels get off the ground, I still have that burst of excitement/adrenaline because <i>I'm flying!</i> Straight form in a T-1 is like watching whales swim. Cool - for about 1 minute - and then it gets real old. But when I finally got the hang of AR (after 2, 4-hour long debriefs, holy cow!) it was like finishing a 1,000,000 piece puzzle. I liked it. And I look forward to going back to it and trying it again and again, just because I can.

I have no interest in flying commercially. Never have. I joined to serve my country, and that's what I'm going to do, whatever it is the AF needs of me, until something really compelling makes me leave. If I were to fly outside the af, I'd fly small tour planes ("and on your left, you'll see the Grand Canyon") or something like that. But I can't imagine flying if it's not for the AF.

Two side notes: More guys want fighters than will let on, especially so close to track select. It's like calling your shot. It's bad luck. I know when we had the same briefing there were a lot of people who really did want 38s who sat on their hands when they asked that question. Maybe no one wants to be "that guy." Also, really, if you want to see an Air Refueling sortie, I've got one on Tues. If the regs allow it, I'd love for you to come watch what we do. Talk to Yerrington if you want to get in touch with me.

Poke not to be a sexist, but dealing with reality here. How does flying a tanker versus a fighter affect your career path should you decide to have children? I mean can you continue on duty up to point or if you get pregnant does that ground you for 9 months?

Hey, Poke,
I respect your opinion and thanks for your input. I am not trying to downgrade tanker or transport pilots. At least you are honest with yourself and seek out challenges in what you do.
I've been a receiver on multiple AARs including in the weather at night while spacial D'd. I've sat through numerous Cope Thunders and Red Flags and seen the tankers role. I respect what tanker pilots do and the fact that you have lots of tasks to accomplish. They are different tasks than I am used to but important nonetheless.
I also think you'd be hardpressed to find any community that is tighter than a Hawg squadron. Ask any pilot or maintainer. We have a rappour that is second to none. We all understood our individual roles and got the job done. And I'm not talking about just the pilots. Our 200 MX troops were as much a part as any of us. We didn't eat our young and didn't go out to prove who was the toughest. If I could go out and win the Top Gun award for the month then that was all the talking that needed to occur. Everyone knew when you did a great job and whaen you messed-up.
As an AC in a single-seater you are in charge of only yourself. You're also in charge of the airplane and the ordnance that comes off of it. As a single seat FAC I was in charge of myself as well as all the fighters and the GFAC and it was my job to prioritize targeting info, weigh risks, and support the ground commander's intentions. In charge of only myself???
When single-seat guys go the airlines why do they multiply fighter hours by 3?? Because single seaters handle all of it. I have a buddy who flew C-5s and had over 2000 hours in them who went to PIT to learn to teach Tweets. When I ran into him a month into the program he was struggling. He said he wasn't used to doing so much stuff all by himself. And that's just teaching Tweets, let alone running weapon systems, deconflicting players, running RWRs and jammers and talking on 3 radios at once.
I'm not trying to sound arrogant. My only hope is to point out that there are major differences here. I don't think you can compare the two. I too have no commercial aspirations. If I were to fly outside the AF I'd want to be a bush pilot. I'm happy that you are challenging yourself and will continue to do so. I am glad you are making good out of what you were dealt.

Cheers...

"Warthog 30 has left the building..."

Warthog30, thanks for being open also. I think the "being different" is what it all comes down to. There are different kinds of people and different kinds of flying. I do much better with checklists, crew concept, etc. I just don't think fast enough for fighters (sadly for me). But I will be the best damn KC-135 pilot you ever saw. And having someone always there to chat with in the slow moments is always nice! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Mattlott- that's a fair question. Pregnant women may not fly. If you decide to have kids, it should be while you have a staff job, or accept not being able to fly for at least 9 months. I think one possibility is also to take "extended leave" or something like that, where you take a few years off, have your kids, and then pick up where you left off and finish your commitment. I don't know exactly how that works, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hey, Poke,
As a single seat FAC I was in charge of myself as well as all the fighters and the GFAC <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

AFAC in charge of the GFAC? Actually, even though it's contrary to how it's supposed to be, with the quality of some GFACs I've worked with, I can certainly see your point.

Worthog30,
I’m in UPT right now, and I will tell you this: My hero’s have always been guys like Rickenbacker, Luke, Bong, Davis, ect… and there is NO limit to the amount of work I will do to get a T38 and have the chance of being a fighter pilot. A lot of candidates feel the same way I do. But I’ve seen three main reasons why many do not want fighters: 1.) The T1 track is basically a no attrite program, so going T38’s is seen as “betting on your wings.” And many just aren’t willing to take that risk, especially if you’ve got an eye on the airlines. 2.) As Poke said, many do not want to be with a group of people who they perceive as cocky, hyper competitive, arrogant, ect. And 3rd.) People feel that if they don’t have a shot at getting T38’s, there is no reason to “wish” for one.

If I don’t get a T38, I will be honored to fly whatever the AF sees fit. But, I must admit, I want a T38 so bad I can taste it. Which leads to a question I have for you. Do you think that getting T38s/fighters is a result of superior natural ability, work ethic, or a combination of the two? I know I have the work ethic, but I suppose time will tell about the natural ability. Any opinions/advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks


"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine." -- Junior Soviet Lieutenant

Funny, Type7. I agree 100%. Very few GFACs know how to really run CAS. What I was getting at is that his life and that of the TACPs could often be in the FAC-A's hands.

Cheers...

"Warthog 30 has left the building..."

When it comes down to it, if you are there for CAS, then everyone's life is in your hands.



"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Poke the reason I asked this question is there was a famous case out of Britian where one of there female tornado pilots got pregnant, and basically was able to walk a way for 9 months, while her spot was held. This to me is biologicaly inequity that can not be overlooked, especially when trying to fill all your pilot positions. So I was wondering if the Air Force encourages family planing and consequences for poorly planned pregnancies. I am embarking on the road to becoming a father for the first time out of the blue, but we are happy with it. I am already seeing how this affects my family, just 3 months into this, and nothing against you I just dont see how it can work.

Especially if a mother decides to be with her baby, not work. I have known doctors and other professional who have done that. I would hate to think that our government has sunk so low as to drag a mother from here child and force her into combat. Again I think this is both a social and biological difference between the sexes here that I would think a civil society would recognize.

Your thoughts?

It's a pretty big issue, all over the military. On one hand, you've got the women who intentionally get pregnant to get out of deployment. On the other, when are we NOT deploying and can start a family without causing problems? I really don't know how it works, being no where close to having kids and not operational, either. But I think it's up to the female soldier to plan the pregnancy at a suitable time, like after you get out or while on a non-deployable assignment. If you try to have kids while on a flying assignment, it'll definitely hurt your OPR unless you've got one heck of an understanding commander and unit. As a woman, you just have to make choices between career and family, much more so than men.

But, that's life. I don't have to worry about prostate cancer so I guess it all evens out.

lol you seem to have your act together. It is just a big concern these days.

Just do us a favor and dont date the germans any more lol. remember your post from this summer.

Good luck in Japan. Be safe. Post pictures when you can.

My College Reserve Marine Corps Time was Spent as an Air and naval Gunfire Terminal Controller (FO). When I Hit my First Squadron (27th TASS) I thought i Knew it all, the Old Feathers that Did SANDY and FAC-A From the Vietnam Era Gave me one serious Tune up. Theres a serious differnce between a TACP and a FAC-A. 60% of the time i didnt have an Army "Arty Officer" with me. I was not familliar with the ranges. It takes a whole hell of allot more G2 to control CAS aircraft, artillary, run the Radios, and provide the terminal Controlling while at the same time Eyeballing targets, Marking, Bino deconfliction and supproting a ground component commanders scheme of manuever. you really have to be proficient in everyone elses part of the equation.

By the time I ended up on my ALO tour.. I could do this stuff in my sleep.... theirs much to be said about manageing more than your "individual actions" in an airframe.