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This is just sad. http://warthogterritory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11694 |
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Author: | boomer [ 05 Jan 2007, 17:53 ] |
Post subject: | This is just sad. |
hellooooooo NATIONAL GUARD!!!! which of those words does someone NOT understand??? I know it's not the troops fault ( due to ROE ) but if the NATIONAL GUARD's primary function isn't to GUARD our NATION then why fund them?? Quote: FOXNEWS.COM HOME > U.S.
Gunmen Attack National Guard Border Patrol Site in Arizona Friday, January 05, 2007 E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION TUCSON, Ariz. — National Guard troops working at an observatory post near the Mexican border were forced to flee after being approached by a group of armed individuals, authorities said. The event occurred about 11 p.m. Wednesday at one of the National Guard entrance identification team posts near Sasabe, said National Guard Sgt. Edward Balaban. He said the troops withdrew safely, no shots were fired and no one suffered injuries. U.S. Border Patrol officials are investigating the incident and trying to determine who the armed people were, what they were doing and why they approached the post before retreating to Mexico. The incident occurred in the west desert corridor between Nogales and Lukeville in the vicinity of Sasabe, Balaban said. \"We don't know exactly how many because obviously it took place in the dark,\" Balaban said. \"Nobody was able to get an accurate count.\" The Guard troops are not allowed to apprehend illegal entrants. \"We don't know if this was a matter of somebody coming up accidentally on the individuals, coming up intentionally on the individuals, or some sort of a diversion,\" said Rob Daniels, spokesman for the Border Patrol's Tucson Sector. The west desert corridor has been the busiest in the Tucson Sector for marijuana seizures since last year. Agents have seized 124,000 pounds of marijuana there since Oct. 1, Daniels said. With more Border Patrol agents and National Guard troops patrolling the Arizona section of the U.S.-Mexican border, it has become more difficult to smuggle drugs and people across and \"that heightened frustration may have been connected to what took place last night,\" Daniels said. Officials will make a decision following the investigation about whether changes need to be made in regard to the entrance identification teams, Balaban said. Since arriving in mid-June, the Guard has assisted the Border Patrol by manning control rooms, doing vehicle and helicopter maintenance, repairing roads and fences, constructing vehicle barriers and fences and spotting and reporting illegal entrants in entrance identification teams. There are dozens of National Guard entrance identification teams along the Mexican border, including east and west of both Nogales and Sasabe and on the Tohono O'odham Nation. The troops stand post on hilltops next to army-green tents and serve as extra eyes and ears for the Border Patrol. |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 05 Jan 2007, 18:43 ] |
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I wonder if the guard troops even have ammo. When the guv of Kali sent the guard into LA after the riots they didnt even give them ammo, and some of them ended up getting robbed of their issued weapons at gunpoint! And of course there was the marine barracks were marines were prohibited from having loaded weapons, and it cost 238 of them(IIRC), their lives. |
Author: | Stinger [ 05 Jan 2007, 18:51 ] |
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Guys from my unit are being sent to the border to \"support\" the Border Patrol without their weapons... let alone ammo.... |
Author: | 30mike-mike [ 05 Jan 2007, 19:03 ] |
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When I went to Afghanland, they \"issued\" me a new CAC card with the Geneva Convent. blah blah. on it. \"You're a civilian. It's all the protection you need\" First thing I did on arrival was ask \"Who do I see about getting a side-arm and/or M4 for travel into Indian Country. Mama M-11 didn't raise no dummy. |
Author: | fenderstrat72 [ 05 Jan 2007, 20:41 ] |
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Did you guys see where private contractor's in Iraq now are answerable under the UCMJ? From Mil.com Law Catches up to Private Militaries Defense Tech | By P.W. Singer | January 04, 2007 Editor's note: Since the start of the Iraq war, tens of thousands of heavily-armed military contractors have been roaming the country -- without any law, or any court to control them. That may be about to change, Brookings Institution Senior Fellow P.W. Singernotes in a Defense Tech exclusive. Five words, slipped into a Pentagon budget bill, could make all the difference. With them, \"contractors 'get out of jail free' cards may have been torn to shreds,\" he writes. They're now subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the same set of laws that governs soldiers. But here's the catch: embedded reporters are now under those regulations, too. Over the last few years, tales of private military contractors run amuck in Iraq -- from the CACI interrogators at Abu Ghraib to the Aegis company's Elvis-themed internet \"trophy video\" —- have continually popped up in the headlines. Unfortunately, when it came to actually doing something about these episodes of Outsourcing Gone Wild, Hollywood took more action than Washington. The TV series Law and Order punished fictional contractor crimes, while our courts ignored the actual ones. Leonardo Dicaprio acted in a movie featuring the private military industry, while our government enacted no actual policy on it. But those carefree days of military contractors romping across the hills and dales of the Iraqi countryside, without legal status or accountability, may be over. The Congress has struck back. Amidst all the add-ins, pork spending, and excitement of the budget process, it has now come out that a tiny clause was slipped into the Pentagon's fiscal year 2007 budget legislation. The one sentence section (number 552 of a total 3510 sections) states that \"Paragraph (10) of section 802(a) of title 10, United States Code (article 2(a) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by striking `war' and inserting `declared war or a contingency operation'.\" The measure passed without much notice or any debate. And then, as they might sing on School House Rock, that bill became a law (P.L.109-364). The addition of five little words to a massive US legal code that fills entire shelves at law libraries wouldn't normally matter for much. But with this change, contractors' 'get out of jail free' card may have been torn to shreds. Previously, contractors would only fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, better known as the court martial system, if Congress declared war. This is something that has not happened in over 65 years and out of sorts with the most likely operations in the 21st century. The result is that whenever our military officers came across episodes of suspected contractor crimes in missions like Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, or Afghanistan, they had no tools to resolve them. As long as Congress had not formally declared war, civilians -- even those working for the US armed forces, carrying out military missions in a conflict zone -- fell outside their jurisdiction. The military's relationship with the contractor was, well, merely contractual. At most, the local officer in charge could request to the employing firm that the individual be demoted or fired. If he thought a felony occurred, the officer might be able to report them on to civilian authorities. Getting tattled on to the boss is certainly fine for some incidents. But, clearly, it's not how one deals with suspected crimes. And it's nowhere near the proper response to the amazing, awful stories that have made the headlines (the most recent being the contractors who sprung a former Iraqi government minister, imprisoned on corruption charges, from a Green Zone jail). And for every story that has been deemed newsworthy, there are dozens that never see the spotlight. One US army officer recently told me of an incident he witnessed, where a contractor shot a young Iraqi who got too close to his vehicle while in line at the Green Zone entrance. The boy was waiting there to apply for a job. Not merely a tragedy, but one more nail in the coffin for any US effort at winning hearts and minds. But when such incidents happen, officers like him have had no recourse other than to file reports that are supposed to be sent on either to the local government or the US Department of Justice, neither of which had traditionally done much. The local government is often failed or too weak to act - the very reason we are still in Iraq. And our Department of Justice has treated contractor crimes in a more Shakespearean than Hollywood way, as in Much Ado About Nothing. Last month, DOJ reported to Congress that it has sat on over 20 investigations of suspected contractor crimes without action in the last year. The problem is not merely one of a lack of political will on the part of the Administration to deal with such crimes. Contractors have also fallen through a gap in the law. The roles and numbers of military contractors are far greater than in the past, but the legal system hasn't caught up. Even in situations when US civilian law could potentially have been applied to contractor crimes (through the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act), it wasn't. Underlying the previous laws like MEJA was the assumption that civilian prosecutors back in the US would be able to make determinations of what is proper and improper behavior in conflicts, go gather evidence, carry out depositions in the middle of warzones, and then be willing and able to prosecute them to juries back home. The reality is that no US Attorney likes to waste limited budgets on such messy, complex cases 9,000 miles outside their district, even if they were fortunate enough to have the evidence at hand. The only time MEJA has been successfully applied was against the wife of a soldier, who stabbed him during a domestic dispute at a US base in Turkey. Not one contractor of the entire military industry in Iraq has been charged with any crime over the last 3 and a half years, let alone prosecuted or punished. Given the raw numbers of contractors, let alone the incidents we know about, it boggles the mind. The situation perhaps hit its low-point this fall, when the Under Secretary of the Army testified to Congress that the Army had never authorized Halliburton or any of its subcontractors (essentially the entire industry) to carry weapons or guard convoys. He even denied the US had firms handling these jobs. Never mind the thousands of newspaper, magazine, and TV news stories about the industry. Never mind Google's 1,350,000 web mentions. Never mind the official report from U.S. Central Command that there were over 100,000 contractors in Iraq carrying out these and other military roles. In a sense, the Bush Administration was using a cop-out that all but the worst Hollywood script writers avoid. Just like the end of the TV series Dallas, Congress was somehow supposed to accept that the private military industry in Iraq and all that had happened with it was somehow 'just a dream.' But Congress didn't bite, it now seems. With the addition of just five words in the law, contractors now can fall under the purview of the military justice system. This means that if contractors violate the rules of engagement in a warzone or commit crimes during a contingency operation like Iraq, they can now be court-martialed (as in, Corporate Warriors, meet A Few Good Men). On face value, this appears to be a step forward for realistic accountability. Military contractor conduct can now be checked by the military investigation and court system, which unlike civilian courts, is actually ready and able both to understand the peculiarities of life and work in a warzone and kick into action when things go wrong. The amazing thing is that the change in the legal code is so succinct and easy to miss (one sentence in a 439-page bill, sandwiched between a discussion on timely notice of deployments and a section ordering that the next of kin of medal of honor winners get flags) that it has so far gone completely unnoticed in the few weeks since it became the law of the land. Not only has the media not yet reported on it. Neither have military officers or even the lobbyists paid by the military industry to stay on top of these things. So what happens next? In all likelihood, many firms, who have so far thrived in the unregulated marketplace, will now lobby hard to try to strike down the change. We will perhaps even soon enjoy the sight of CEOs of military firms, preening about their loss of rights and how the new definition of warzone will keep them from rescuing kittens caught in trees. But, ironically, the contractual nature of the military industry serves as an effective mechanism to prevent loss of rights. The legal change only applies to the section in the existing law dealing with those civilians \"serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field,\" i.e. only those contractors on operations in conflict zones like Iraq or Afghanistan. It would apply not to the broader public in the US, not to local civilians, and not even to military contractors working in places where civilian law is stood up. Indeed, it even wouldn't apply to our foes, upholding recent rulings on the scope of military law and the detainees at Gitmo. In many ways, the new law is the 21st century business version of the rights contract: If a private individual wants to travel to a warzone and do military jobs for profit, on behalf of the US government, then that individual agrees to fall under the same codes of law and consequence that American soldiers, in the same zones, doing the same sorts of jobs, have to live and work by. If a contractor doesn't agree to these regulations, that's fine, don't contract. Unlike soldiers, they are still civilians with no obligation to serve. The new regulation also seems to pass the fairness test. That is, a lance corporal or a specialist earns less than $20,000 a year for service in Iraq, while a contractor can earn upwards of $100,000-200,000 a year (tax free) for doing the same job and can quit whenever they want. It doesn't seem that unreasonable then to expect the contractor to abide by the same laws as their military counterpart while in the combat theatre. Given that the vast majority of private military employees are upstanding men and women -- and mostly former soldiers, to boot -- living under the new system will not mean much change at all. All it does is now give military investigators a way finally to stop the bad apples from filling the headlines and getting away free. The change in the law is long overdue. But in being so brief, it needs clarity on exactly how it will be realized. For example, how will it be applied to ongoing contracts and operations? Given that the firm executives and their lobbyists back in DC have completely dropped the ball, someone ought to tell the contractors in Iraq that they can now be court martialed. Likewise, the scope of the new law could made more clear; it could be either too limited or too wide, depending on the interpretation. While it is apparent that any military contractor working directly or indirectly for the US military falls under the change, it is unclear whether those doing similar jobs for other US government agencies in the same warzone would fall under it as well (recalling that the contractors at Abu Ghraib were technically employed by the US Department of Interior, sublet out to DOD). On the opposite side, what about civilians who have agreed to be embedded, but not contracted? The Iraq war is the first that journalists could formally embed in units, so there is not much experience with its legal side in contingency operations. The lack of any legal precedent, combined with the new law, could mean that an overly aggressive interpretation might now also include journalists who have embedded. Given that journalists are not armed, not contracted (so not paid directly or indirectly from public monies) and most important, not there to serve the mission objectives, this would probably be too extensive an interpretation. It would also likely mean less embeds. But given the current lack of satisfaction with the embed program in the media, any effect here may be a tempest in a tea pot. As of Fall 2006, there were only nine embedded reporters in all of Iraq. Of the nine, four were from military media (three from Stars and Stripes, one from Armed Forces Network), two not even with US units (one Polish radio reporter with Polish troops, one Italian reporter with Italian troops), and one was an American writing a book. Moreover, we should remember that embeds already make a rights tradeoff when they agree to the military's reporting rules. That is, they have already given up some of their 1st Amendment protections (something at the heart of their professional ethic) in exchange for access, so agreeing to potentially fall under UCMJ when deployed may not be a deal breaker. The ultimate point is that the change gives the military and the civilians courts a new tool to use in better managing and overseeing contractors, but leaves it to the Pentagon and DOJ to decide when and where to use it. Given their recent track record on legal issues in the context of Iraq and the war on terror, many won't be that reassured. Congress is to be applauded for finally taking action to reign in the industry and aid military officers in their duties, but the job is not done. While there may be an inclination to let such questions of scope and implementation be figured out through test cases in the courts, our elected public representatives should request DoD to answer the questions above in a report to Congress. Moreover, while the change may help close one accountability loophole, in no way should it be read as a panacea for the rest of the private military industry's ills. The new Congress still has much to deal with when it comes to the still unregulated industry, including getting enough eyes and ears to actually oversee and manage our contracts effectively, create reporting structures, and forcing the Pentagon to develop better fiscal controls and market sanctions, to actually save money than spend it out. A change of a few words in a legislative bill certainly isn't the stuff of a blockbuster movie. So don't expect to see Angelina Jolie starring in \"Paragraph (10) of Section 802(a)\" in a theatre near you anytime soon. But the legal changes in it are a sign that Congress is finally catching up to Hollywood on the private military industry. And that is the stuff of good governance. -- P.W. Singer is Senior Fellow and Director of the 21st Century Defense Initiative at The Brookings Institution. He is the author of Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry (Cornell University Press) and the upcoming book Wired for War (Houghton Mifflin). |
Author: | Stinger [ 05 Jan 2007, 20:52 ] |
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Everytime I read an article about these \"Private Contractors\" I think of mercenaries and that leads me to thinking about the fall of Rome being presaged by the use of mercenaries... |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 05 Jan 2007, 22:52 ] |
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The UCMJ CANNOT legally be applied to US civilians, i dont give a flying fuck what law anyone passes. Cause guess what kiddies, if they are allowed to apply it overseas(where YES, US citizens ARE subject to the host nations AND US treaties), it will only be a matter of time before some judge connects the dots and says, \"The precendent is that US civilians are subject to the UCMJ overseas, so why not here?\" This article is an OUTRIGHT distortion of the facts in order to garner support for yet another power grab by the US Gov't. UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE. Under this new law, any US citizen can be subjected to the UCMJ under a 'contingency operation', and NO, the change in the law does not state this is only overseas. So obviously, it's ANYWHERE. So tell me folks, is Katrina a \"Contingency operation\"? I bet i could find some judges that said it was. Welcome to the wonderful world of tyranny people. As far as mercenaries, we have been using them since 1775. |
Author: | Stinger [ 05 Jan 2007, 23:48 ] |
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M21 Sniper wrote: As far as mercenaries, we have been using them since 1775. But not in the way we are now... Not to the DEGREE we are now, and they haven't been given the leeway that we have given them in the last few years. Revolutionary war aside, we've not been as reliant upon them to execute national policy as we are now. And I dislike the idea of them being used CONUS.... at least a military of volunteers/draftees could be expected to tell their respective chain of command to go f**k themselves if given orders to wipe out "smalltown USA" these golddigging merc corporations and their employees would probly go "OK $3mil" and get out the flamethrower.
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Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 00:00 ] |
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I would say that someone hired solely for money and not subject to military \"justice\" would be far less likely to follow an illegal order like \"wipe out that town\" than a soldier facing direct threat of courts-matial for disobeying an order would. Yet another reason to keep the UCMJ the hell away from civvies. As far as mercenaries, in nam we used the Nards, who operated almost solely independently of the US chain of command, a tribe of people that were only loosely governed by Special forces advisors. In WWII we utilized the french resistance, the yugoslav resistance, the greek resistance, and numerous pacific 'mercenary' groups as well. At any rate, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. |
Author: | fenderstrat72 [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:15 ] |
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Quote: But here's the catch: embedded reporters are now under those regulations, too.
Did you guys miss this part? I am surprised some of you were not all over this. I'm with Snipe on this one. If someone has not raised there hand to support and defend, and to do so according to regualations and the UCMJ should not be held accountable under the UCMJ. The UCMJ is for military personnel, not civilians, period. |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:22 ] |
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Absolutely agreed Fender. |
Author: | sgtgoose1 [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:33 ] |
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The Guard has Ammo but it has to stay \"Pouched\" ,the rules of Engagement set down by the \"Commander and Chief\" (Bush) Is that when attacked ,shot at or whatever they are to \"NOT ENGAGE BUT TO RETREAT \"nd report to the boarder patrol the action. The ONLY TIME DEADLY FORCE IS AUTHORIZED IS WHEN THEY CAN'T RETREAT AND THEIR LIVES ARE IN DANGER. Thats their ROE ,I heard Tucker going OFF on it and MSNBC all day talking about this ![]() I guess I would be in \"Danger and cut-off alot\" ![]() Goose |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:43 ] |
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To me what the Guard is doing on the border UTTERLY PALES in significance to US civilians now being subject to the UCMJ, which is completely and totally outrageous. |
Author: | sgtgoose1 [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:52 ] |
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You'll start hearing more probably when they start opening your Fist Class mail with out search warrants because of the Presidential Signing letter attached to the the new Postal bill they just figured-out. I agree with all you folks, UCMJ is for Military only, and \"Private cONTRACTORS\" for protection is BS and look out when they start using more here in this country. Goose |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:53 ] |
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While we're on the topic: Stallone attacks Mexican border fence By ISTRA PACHECO, Associated Press Writer Fri Jan 5, 9:45 AM ET MEXICO CITY - Sylvester Stallone defended boxing, praised the hard work of Mexicans and dished out some jabs against U.S. plans to build a wall on its southern border, as the 60-year-old actor visited Mexico City to promote his sixth \"Rocky\" film. Stallone said Thursday that \"Rocky Balboa,\" the latest installment in the underdog saga of the Italian Stallion, shows an ordinary man fighting back against life's difficulties represented by his stronger ring opponents. \"It's like bullfighting or certain sports where you understand the brutality,\" he told reporters. \"The thing is you have two men who are prepared; two men who have trained for this and know exactly what they're doing. It's not like two strong men attacking strangers.\" In \"Rocky Balboa,\" an MGM Pictures release, the aging scrapper is running a restaurant when a computer-simulated bout inspires him to put the gloves back on. In one scene, his character defends his restaurant's immigrant cooks and waiters against slanderous comments. \"I support Mexicans who work in my country,\" he said, adding that the United States depends on the hard work of Latinos to keep running. In comments to Mexican media later, Stallone criticized plans to build 700 miles of fence along the border as an immigration-control measure. Such a fence was \"crazy\" and \"ridiculous,\" he said, arguing that nations should be able to interact without being divided by walls. The Mexican government has railed against the fence with former President Vicente Fox comparing it to the Berlin Wall. -------------------- BTW, having now seen Rocky 6, IMO it was \"Just OK\". 2.5 stars out of 5 IMO. |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 03:54 ] |
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sgtgoose1 wrote: You'll start hearing more probably when they start opening your Fist Class mail with out search warrants because of the Presidential Signing letter attached to the the new Postal bill they just figured-out.
I agree with all you folks, UCMJ is for Military only, and "Private cONTRACTORS" for protection is BS and look out when they start using more here in this country. Goose I just heard about THAT today too. Also UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE. |
Author: | Horrido [ 06 Jan 2007, 06:12 ] |
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30mike-mike wrote: When I went to Afghanland, they "issued" me a new CAC card with the Geneva Convent. blah blah. on it. "You're a civilian. It's all the protection you need" First thing I did on arrival was ask "Who do I see about getting a side-arm and/or M4 for travel into Indian Country. Mama M-11 didn't raise no dummy.
I hope you politely asked whoever made that assanine statement to kindly turn around, and then promptly stamped your boot on his ass for being the numbskull he clearly is. For curiosity's sake, were you able to obtain appropriate personal protective gear during your stay? Again, I'm with everyone else on the mail opening and civilians under UCMJ. While I don't mean to be rude, degrading, or insult the sacrifices of our service men and women, but I've never honestly had faith, regardless of oath, that as an organization they actually would defend our freedoms if truly assaulted, and such assault can only come from within by our own government. I see them now as enforcers of US foreign (and soon to be domestic) policy. We are seeing indicators in which the military should be acting to defend the Constitution, and I fear when the time comes, the US Armed Forces will fail in their most critical and sacred obligation. The only group capable of defending our freedoms is the US citizen and civilian that has the most to lose, and I don't think the average American has the spirit and fortitude to preserve them. |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 06:18 ] |
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Agreed Horrido. If they want a fight, i think they will find a couple million Americans who are more than ready to oblige them. I suspect that at this point almost any spark could start a MAJOR fire... BTW, it's time to say it in plain English: W is a tyrant. A very stupid one. |
Author: | prkiii [ 06 Jan 2007, 08:41 ] |
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sgtgoose1 wrote: The Guard has Ammo but it has to stay "Pouched" ,the rules of Engagement set down by the "Commander and Chief" (Bush)
Is that when attacked ,shot at or whatever they are to "NOT ENGAGE BUT TO RETREAT "nd report to the boarder patrol the action. The ONLY TIME DEADLY FORCE IS AUTHORIZED IS WHEN THEY CAN'T RETREAT AND THEIR LIVES ARE IN DANGER. Thats their ROE ,I heard Tucker going OFF on it and MSNBC all day talking about this ![]() I guess I would be in "Danger and cut-off alot" ![]() Goose This is my question...why even have them on the border if they can't fire back if fired upon?!?! Someone earlier talked about Rome...I love my country, don't get be wrong...but I'm starting to think we are like Rome and beginning to fall apart, slowly yes, but on the way.... |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2007, 09:55 ] |
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Don't seem to slow to me Paul. Considering the state of the US Gov't, we might be better off. As i am fond of saying, we were more free under the British... |
Author: | sgtgoose1 [ 06 Jan 2007, 11:58 ] |
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I guess that line in our Oath \"To protect against all enemies both Foreign and Domestic ' has been changed to \"To protect against all enemies both Foreign and Domestic ,unless their crossing the border to deliver Illegal Drug's, Cheap Labor or anything thing else that helps our neighbors to the South. Goose |
Author: | Hawg166 [ 06 Jan 2007, 14:57 ] |
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Yeah I dont think most of them have ammo. We have sent more than a few, as a matter of fact ANYONE FROM ANY JOB can volunteer to go and build the fence. I know for a fact that the guys that we send dont have any weapons at all unless they go as security forces augmentees. Most of them are there to build the fence. |
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