WT Forums

Have you seen or heard about the tragic accidental shooting of that eight year old boy over the weekend that happened in Westfield where his father let him shoot a Micro UZI machine gun.

I saw on a recent post that you are a retired MSgt. Combat Arms Instructor is the reason that I pose this question. If you have not heard about it you can find the story on MassLive.com

I hadn't heard about this until I read your post. Tragic and incredibly stupid are terms that first come to mind. As a retired CATM Instructor, I take firearms safety VERY SERIOUSLY. Too serious for most civilians.

In the AF, the first time any of us ever went Full Auto with a weapon, we always had either an instructor, or at least, a shooting coach, (partner shooter), standing right behind us to ensure the weapon stayed straight down range, and we're adults. In my 20 years as a CATM Instructor, I can think of at least a dozen times when I'd seen shooters loose control of rifles and machine guns on full auto, and the coach or instructor was there at the ready to keep the weapon's muzzle in the direction of the backstop. Also, in that 20 years, not once was anybody, or non-target material/equipment, ever shot on my range.

In my opinion, the \"Instuctors\", and I use that term very loosly, should have their certifications pulled, and be prosicuted. The owners of the range and the organizers of the event should be at the very least fined. The father should be beaten. There is no excuse for such an incident to have happened. There was grose negligence and reckless behavior on the part of all the adults involved.

It's Avoidable situations like these that lend fuel to the fires of the Anti-Gun'ers. Those extreme left wing liberals that want to make gun ownership illeagle. We, and the NRA, have to police ourselves or else the government will have no reason not to come down on us and demand weapons registration and extreme gun control.

Now I'm all for the second amendment. I fully believe that we as citizens should have the right to own, possess, and fire, just about any weapon under the sun, just as we have the right to drive any vehicle made by man. HOWEVER, just as we first HAVE to pass a driving test, both written and practical, before being licsensed to drive, I think it would be a very good idea to require firearms training before allowing people to buy and possess these weapons. Not saying we shouldn't be allowed to have or carry firearms, just that we should have to be properly trained before we're allowed to carry or possess. If the NRA were half on top of this as they claim to be, they'd be the ones pushing for this. They are the ones in position to profit most by it. There would be a massive demand for more instructors with NRA membership and credentials, and there would be a higher demand for ranges, classes, certifications. The biggest plus though, would be that the VAST majority of gun owners would be better trained and accidents, and incidents like these would be greatly reduced.

In the AF, you are not allowed to draw a weapon from an armory, if you've not been resently trained and qualified with that weapon, and it's worked pretty well for us. Why should the civilian world be any different?

OK, down off my soap box, and my rant is over. Thanks for letting me vent.

_________________
Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option

I wish that there was a way that I could for what you just said to the editor of the local newspaper,The Republican, at letters@repub.com.

I can't beleive how stupid and senseless this tradgedy is. When you read the whole story you have to wonder just what anyone involved in this was thinking.
http://www.courant.com/community/news/ec/hc-uzideath1205.artdec05,0,4630347.story

OC



A Massachusetts grand jury has indicted a police chief, two Connecticut men and a gun club in the Oct. 26 death of an 8-year-old Ashford boy who shot himself in the head at a machine gun event in Westfield, Mass.

Christopher K. Bizilj lost control of a 9mm Micro Uzi at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club. The two-day event was sponsored by the club and COP Firearms & Training, a business owned by Edward B. Fleury, a firearms instructor and dealer and the chief of police in Pelham, Mass.

As Christopher fired at a pumpkin, the Uzi's rapid rate of fire — 1,700 rounds per minute — caused the gun's barrel to climb and the boy lost control of the weapon, said William M. Bennett, the Hampden, Mass., district attorney who announced the indictments Thursday.

A flier advertising the event read: \"No age limit or licenses required to shoot machine guns, hand guns, rifles or shotguns,\" and \"It's all legal & fun — No permits or licenses required.

Christopher Bizilj Fleury was indicted on a single count of involuntary manslaughter and four counts of furnishing a machine gun to a person younger than 18. The club was indicted on the same charges. Carl Giuffre of West Hartford and Domenico Spano of New Milford were each charged with a single count of involuntary manslaughter.

Giuffre and Spano are involved in Simsbury-based Provost's Precision Pistols LLC, which is federally licensed to manufacture machine guns. Giuffre is listed as vice president of the business. Spano is a machinist who does work for the firm, according to a trade publication. The company's president, Christopher Provost of Simsbury, works part time for Fleury in the Pelham Police Department, according to town records.

Bennett said Giuffre and Spano brought the weapon to the show after being assured by Fleury that it was legal for children to use it under Massachusetts law. It was not known Thursday how many firms supplied guns at the event.

That, however, is not the case, Bennett said. Massachusetts law prohibits furnishing a machine gun to any person younger than 18, Bennett said. \"There is no exception that would allow a machine gun to be furnished to an 8-year-old, with or without parental consent,\" Bennett said.

The club and Fleury face four counts of furnishing a machine gun to a person younger than 18 because investigators found that at least four children, including Christopher and his brother Colin, fired automatic weapons at the event.

Bennett noted that the weapon Christopher fired is \"made by and for the Israeli Armed Forces and is intended to meet the operational needs of Israeli Special Forces. It is not a hunting weapon. It has a rate of fire of 1,700 rounds per minute.\"

The grand jury did not indict Christopher's father, Dr. Charles Bizilj, who was standing nearby preparing to snap a photo of his son when the accident occurred. Bennett said Bizilj will be punished each day for the rest of his life.

Bennett said Bizilj selected the small weapon for his 4-foot-3, 66-pound son to fire after being assured it was safe. Bennett said the father was not charged because he was a layman and based his decision on information from others who should have known it was too dangerous.

Advertisements for the event also indicated that shooters would be \"accompanied to the firing line with a certified instructor to guide you. But You Are In Control — 'FULL AUTO ROCK & ROLL.'\"

The district attorney said a 15-year-old familiar with guns, but not a certified instructor, accompanied Christopher to the firing line and was there when he shot himself. The boy will not be charged, Bennett said.

Fleury, Giuffre, Spano and Charles Bizilj could not be reached for comment Thursday. A lawyer for the club, Thomas Drechsler of Boston, said the club denies any wrongdoing and intends to plead not guilty. He said neither the club nor any member gave the Uzi to Christopher or any child, and that no club member was in the immediate area when the accident occurred.

The grand jury's decision to indict was praised by officials at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which said it was right for those charged to be held accountable for furnishing a machine gun to a child. \"It should be obvious to any reasonable adult that 8-year-olds should not be firing Uzi machine guns,\" said Paul Helmke, the center's president.

No date has been set for the arraignments of those charged. An involuntary manslaughter conviction carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. The term can be five years or less for a person with no prior convictions. Furnishing a machine gun to a minor is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. The club faces a fine of up to $10,000 for each furnishing charge and $1,000 for the involuntary manslaughter charge.

[url][/url]

But if Congress wrote this requirement in a law, the "Gun-ers" (NRA and all the Second Amendment nuts out there) would scream bloody murder. You can't have it both ways.

Coach

I saw a private let go of a run-away M-60 MG and go fetal position in his firing hole once. It started hopping all over and ended up putting about a dozen rounds over the heads of everyone to the right of his position on the firing line before the closest range NCO got to it and twisted the ammo belt. That dumbass pvt could have killed several people. (Can you say field grade article 15?)

I've seen some extremely stupid things done by soldiers on live fire artillery ranges. Back in the late 80s there was one platoon sergeant that got defrocked for wiping out a trainee FO team at Sill with a platoon of 4.2\" mortars.

There have certainly been plenty of high profile pilot fuck ups in the news in the last x number of years. How about the dumbass pilots that took out the ski gondola in Italy? Or the stupid idiots that directly disobeyed do not shoot orders and blew the shit out of Canadian troops in af-stan. Or the Apache Sqn CO during ODS that violated all kind of protocols and blew away a couple Bradleys, killing like a dozen American kids.

PEOPLE do stupid things, don't matter if they're in uniform or not, no one has a moral high ground here.

That being said, the event with the micro-uzi and the kid was also extremely stupid and tragic.

Just read an update on this incident. Seems the \"Qualified Instructor\" who was supervising the weapons firing was a 15 year old kid, and the ower of the range, and owners of the weapons are being brought up on charges of putting FA weapons in the hands of minors, and a few other charges. The 15 year old and the Father will not be charged.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_ ... ts_himself

_________________
Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option

I am definitely a pro-gunner. That being said, I myself have never even held a FA weapon, let alone fire one. I have an 8 yr old son, and I can't FATHOM the thought of putting one of those in his hands! I think 8 is a little young for a weapon of that magnitude!! IMHO.....

And at 28 shots/second, who would think an 8yr old would be able to hold THAT???

_________________
\"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a GAU-8/A at your side, kid.\"--Hawg Solo

I've seen plenty of soldiers who shouldn't be allowed near an M60 or M249 let alone a compact FA weapon... and these were (physicaly if not mentally) adults. 8 years old is mid to tail end of .22 training

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"