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The M1A2 may be the final MBT http://warthogterritory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2489 |
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Author: | tritonal [ 02 Jan 2003, 17:58 ] |
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http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... astmbt.pdf With its superb integration of firepower, mobility, and armor protection, the M1A2 Abrams is very nearly the ultimate incarnation of the main battle tank (MBT). Although more advanced design concepts have been published in recent years, it will likely prove quite difficult to produce an MBT sufficiently superior (to the M1A2) to justify the cost, so why not look for a better idea? The Missile Option When Egyptian Saggers surprised Israeli tankers in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, there were many who proclaimed, “The tank is dead!” A quarter-century later, tank advocates point to the continued use of the MBT as proof that the best antitank weapon is still another gun-armed tank. Yet it may be that the missile proponents were not wrong in their pronouncement — just premature. Missiles that are guided to the target by a human operator (e.g., TOW, Dragon, Sagger) can be neutralized by distracting or killing the gunner. This would be analogous to World War II dive bombers being fired on by a battleship’s antiaircraft guns; disrupt the pilot’s concentration and the bomb impacts harmlessly into the sea. But an electronic brain does not — as far as we know — feel fear or get distracted by nearby shellbursts. It also has immensely faster reaction times than a human. These factors make electronic guidance far superior to human control for guided missiles. The self-guided missile has eclipsed the large-caliber gun in naval surface warfare. It is about to do so in the realm of land combat. The tank cannon has a maximum effective range of about 3000 meters, and precise aim is required to make a hit. The self-guided missile, however, can — like Longbow Hellfire — be effective to more than 8000 meters, and the electronic brain continually corrects the flight path as necessary. Although Longbow Hellfire was designed for the AH-64D Apache helicopter, there is no obvious reason it couldn’t be fired from an armored vehicle. Indeed, at least one nation is apparently developing a similar system. According to the August/December 1993 issue of ASIAN MILITARY REVIEW, India has developed the NAG, a fire-and-forget antitank missile with a range of six kilometers. It was planned that the NAG would be the armament for a tracked combat vehicle. With ground surveillance radar (GSR) incorporated into its fire control system, such a combat vehicle could engage targets through fog and smoke screens that block thermal sights. U.S. tank crewmen have never had to face a weapon system with such capabilities. In the United States, the self-guided Javelin missile system began being issued to the troops in mid-1996. Although it was designed as a manportable, antiarmor missile for infantry use, there is a growing awareness that Javelin has enormous potential as a vehiclemounted weapon. For example, the U.S. Marine Corps is investigating how Javelin can be incorporated into the new advanced amphibious assault vehicle (AAAV). Another idea would have single or multiple Javelin launchers installed on the M113A3 armored personnel carrier, thereby vastly increasing the combat capability of the venerable APC. Because Javelin’s 2000-meter maximum range is less than optimal for vehicle employment, the follow-on to TOW (FOTT) program is underway. FOTT will also use fire-and-forget technologies, but it will probably have a maximum range of 4000-5000 meters. MBT or FCS? The Army’s modernization plan, as made public in September 1996, calls for continued upgrades to the Abrams fleet, while conducting research on a future combat system (FCS). The FCS is expected to enter production around 2015, replacing the M1-series tanks. Since the next generation armored fighting vehicle is no longer referred to as an MBT, can it be inferred that the future combat system need not be a tank as we know it today? If self-guided missiles are chosen for the primary armament of the FCS, a number of advantages present themselves. For one, it ought to be possible to eliminate the turret assembly; this would greatly simplify construction, with a corresponding decrease in production cost and vehicle weight. As currently configured, an MBT needs a turret to enable 360-degree target engagement without changing hull direction. At a traverse rate of, say, 40 degrees per second, it would take over four seconds to reverse the direction of the gun tube. For the FCS, if vertical launch is feasible, “traverse” could be done electronically and instantaneously, without any actual movement of the launch tubes; for horizontal launch, some form of physical traverse mechanism might be necessary, though. The Abrams’ maximum rate of fire is about six rounds per minute; if a single M1A2 were to engage a half dozen enemy tanks, the Abrams would be subject to return fire for nearly a full minute, since each opponent would have to be dealt with sequentially. On the other hand, a properly-designed, missilearmed FCS could lock onto all six en- 14 ARMOR — July-August 1997 The M1A2 Abrams: The Last Main Battle Tank? by Stanley C. Crist “Since the next generation armored fighting vehicle is no longer referred to as an MBT, can it be inferred that the future combat system need not be a tank as we know it today?” emy vehicles simultaneously and salvo fire one missile at each target in perhaps less time than the M1A2 crew would take to achieve its first kill. This would give an FCS-equipped force a great advantage when fighting outnumbered. Ideally, the FCS would use a multipurpose missile that can be employed not only against armored vehicles, but the entire array of ground and aerial targets encountered on the battlefield. As on modern naval vessels, it would probably be wise to include a small- or medium-caliber gun for close range and low priority targets, but this would depend on the capabilities of the missile system. Back to the Future No doubt most MBT proponents will object to the idea that a missile-armed future combat system can make obsolete the gun-armed main battle tank. Perhaps they would find it worthwhile to ponder the words of Rear Admiral Austin M. Knight in his introduction to the 1917 book, The United States Navy — From the Revolution to Date: “And through all its changes the backbone of the fleet has continued to be the fighting ship of large and steadily increasing size, with powers of offense and defense evenly balanced upon the whole — recognizing the menace of secondary enemies and guarding against them as best it may, but seeing its real opponent in the battleships and dreadnoughts of the enemy. The dreadnought of today has succeeded, through gradual, not revolutionary, development, to the line-of-battle ship of two centuries ago. It may be that this type is soon to become obsolete, but the evidence that this is so appeals far more strongly to the popular imagination than to the seasoned judgment of students of naval warfare.” Substitute “battle tank” and “land warfare” for the terms “battleship” and “naval warfare,” and the paragraph would read almost as if it were printed in a current issue of ARMOR. Admiral Knight’s words should stand as a note of caution to those who think the MBT ARMOR — July-August 1997 15 Lethality, range, and accuracy of the Harpoon antiship missile has enabled modern cruisers and destroyers to become the Navy’s primary surface combatants, a role that used to belong to the heavily-armored, direct-fire, big-gun battleships. (Photo: U.S. Navy) As in naval warfare, aerial combat is now dominated by guided missiles; guns have been relegated to the status of backup weapons. (Photo: U.S. Air Force) Disturbing parallels to land warfare? is here to stay. Just as the self-guided missile has displaced the gun in naval warfare, so is it sure to do in ground combat. The question is, will the Armor community follow Javelin and Longbow Hellfire on the path to the future, or will it stay on the same dead end street that doomed the battleship to oblivion? Bibliography Robin Fletcher, “The Crewing and Configuration of the Future Main Battle Tank,” ARMOR, May-June 1995. George Forty, Tank Action—From The Great War to the Gulf, Alan Sutton Publishing Limited, 1995. Wes Glasgow, COL Christopher Cardine, and David Latson, “The M1A2: Current and Future Program Plans,” ARMOR, May-June 1996. COL Frank Hartline, “Letters,” ARMOR, September- October 1996. Christopher T. Heun, “Army and Abrams Tank Linked for the Long Haul,” National DEFENSE, November 1996. Peter M. Keating, “Agile, Elusive Armored Killer Will Stalk 21st Century Arena,” National DEFENSE, September 1996. MAJ James K. Morningstar, “Javelins and Skirmishers on the Battlefield,” ARMOR, May- June 1996. Francis J. Reynolds, The United States Navy— From the Revolution to Date, P.F. Collier and Son, 1917. David Schueler, “Battlewagons Eternal: A History of the Iowa Class Battleships,” COMMAND, Jan-Feb 1992. Dr. Asher H. Sharoni and Lawrence D. Bacon, “Forward Area Air-Ground Defense,” ARMOR, July-August 1996. CPT Harold L. Spurgeon and Stanley C. Crist, “The Tank Is Dead — Long Live the Tank!” ARMOR, March-April 1987. Hellfire, seen here being fired from an M113, can hit targets as far away as 8000 meters— almost three times as far as the Abrams! If adapted to the Longbow Hellfire system, ground forces would have a heretofore unknown combat capability. (Photo: Rockwell International) The shape of things to come? A missile-armed Future Combat System might resemble the Bradley-LOSAT prototype shown here. A very low silhouette is made possible by a turretless configuration. (Photo: Loral Vought Systems) Stanley Crist is a former tank commander, having served with the 3d Battalion, 185th Armor. He is a previous contributor to ARMOR. |
Author: | JSF [ 02 Jan 2003, 19:46 ] |
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hopefully there will be no more need for any weapons soon, man will have turned his efforts to the conquest of space and not other men indeed, indeed, indeed |
Author: | boomer [ 02 Jan 2003, 20:10 ] |
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many armor systems already mount missles so why not keep the best of both worlds, heavily armored missle "tanks". And you keep the gun cause you cant trust a "spook" to never come up with a counter to your missle system. Even today with all the lectro gizmos you can shake a stick at, it's still pretty hard to "jam" a gun round. Long live kinetic energy, it's not just a good idea, it's the law (of physics <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ) "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0> |
Author: | tritonal [ 02 Jan 2003, 22:23 ] |
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Boomer, that was also my approximate thinking when I read the article. According to that article, by 2015 they'll retire the Abrams. I'd love to see what they come up with next because I don't see how that system can ever be topped. Did you catch the poiny they brought up about the fact that sea guns are now replaced by missile systems? I don't think that will be the case with land warfare for the reason of them just having different types of variables and dynamics |
Author: | boomer [ 03 Jan 2003, 00:06 ] |
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agreed on all points. A ship at sea is a lot easier target for misslry than an armored whatever amongst hills and various buildings. "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0> |
Author: | Marky Mark [ 03 Jan 2003, 05:20 ] |
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That "ground surveillance radar" would make a great HARM target wouldn't it? It's hard to do that to a laser range finder. |
Author: | boomer [ 03 Jan 2003, 11:54 ] |
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unfortunatly the HARM is almost useless these days, flicking the radar on and off breaks the lock. We fired MANY of them in Kosovo/Bosnia and IIRC only 1 of the HARMs hit anything! "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0> |
Author: | boomer [ 03 Jan 2003, 11:55 ] |
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if they finish the AARGM it will increase the range of HARM to about 100miles, give it an active seeker,more speed and folding wings. "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0> |
Author: | tritonal [ 03 Jan 2003, 12:28 ] |
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See, that just proves you always need something tested and proven, like the trust-worthy cannon system. |
Author: | tedg [ 03 Jan 2003, 12:32 ] |
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> unfortunatly the HARM is almost useless these days, flicking the radar on and off breaks the lock. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> I though the HARM stores the location of the emitter, and flies to that point if the emitter stops? Actually, something like a Chapprall (sp?) launcher with the anti-radar version of the Sidewinder (Sidearm?) might be more useful than a HARM...it could be there with the armored units instead of having to rely on air cover. Ted Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason. <img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/dark2.gif" border=0> |
Author: | boomer [ 03 Jan 2003, 13:06 ] |
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I though the HARM stores the location of the emitter, and flies to that point if the emitter stops? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> it does but it isnt nearly good enough as the recent conflicts have shown. Currently the HARM is being upgraded with a GPS/inertial unit that should help, hopefully a lot, as well as some sort of IFF system to keep it from homing on friendly RADARs. "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0> |
Author: | 30mike-mike [ 03 Jan 2003, 14:49 ] |
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Gives new meaning to "Going in HARMS way", doesn't it!<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> King George II on Gen. James Wolfe: "Mad, is he? Then I wish he'd bite more of my other generals!" |
Author: | Marky Mark [ 03 Jan 2003, 16:10 ] |
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'Nuff said! |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 03 Jan 2003, 20:30 ] |
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There is a new seeker for harm called the 'Quickbolt', it stores the position of the enemy radar in memory, and ignores everything else after launch(in one mode). As far as the tank becoming obsolete, it is as ridiculous as missiles making, in order.....fighter guns, warship guns, and finally tank guns obsolete. Frankly, a CIWS for MBTs is easily technicly doable, but the risk to tanks- despite that guys assertions- is minimal. And 120mm main gun range is more like 6000 meters, not 3000... Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. Edited by - m21 sniper on Jan 06 2003 6:20 PM |
Author: | tritonal [ 06 Jan 2003, 18:55 ] |
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Sniper, have you heard of that new obtsacle-reducing round, XM-908? It's just like the MPAT only that it replaces the proximity fuse with a steel nose. I have read that the round can take a 6x6x6 concrete obstacle block and turn it into rubble. Thuse it would be useful for reducing bunkers and buildings. It is presently deployed with the forces in Korea but I wonder if they'll bring some to the Gulf for the reason that if the battle spills over to the streets of Baghdad, then it will be in their best advantage to use that munition. |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 06 Jan 2003, 19:19 ] |
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I havn't heard of that one Tritonal, but if it does what you state it will be a very useful addition. MOUT is the only place where an M-1 is likely to operate that it is totally at the grunts mercy, so anything they can get to help them out there would really help to reduce their vulnerability. In MOUT settings armor generally sucks- much like infantry on flat open terrain... Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. |
Author: | tritonal [ 06 Jan 2003, 19:39 ] |
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Here's an ammo link: http://www.defensedaily.com/progprof/ar ... n_ammo.pdf The tank is mobile, protected, and has immense firepower. If the preparations are made then the tank could be a valuable asset to MOUT: http://www.specialoperations.com/mout/moutpoimootw.html http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6453/moutpoi32.html |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 07 Jan 2003, 04:09 ] |
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Good data on the 120mm series tritonal. I'm sure the DAT's will be thrilled to have beehive rounds again! As far as tanks in MOUT, yes, when heavily supported by dismount infantry they are effective as a general support weapon, and can be a great aid in clearing buildings with main gun and heavy machine gun fire, but at the same time their most vulnerable positions are always exposed, and often times they will not be able to return fire at infantry(they are limited to +/-20 degrees of barrel elevation) firing from either roof tops or defilades. They are also subject to deliberate obstacle placement to funnel them into a 270 degree kill zone that the enemy has presighted with heavy guns. That can get really ugly really fast for the tankers. So they rely very heavily on their Infantry to protect their flanks top, and rear, and we rely on them to blow shit up. It's a pretty happy arrangement for the most part.... ![]() Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 07 Jan 2003, 04:13 ] |
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But just for the record......the M162A2 Vulcan air defense vehicle is probably the meanest SOB around in MOUT. They combine super high elevation, very fast traverse, a short barrel(that wont smack into buildings as the turret slews like an M-1 barrel does) and an immense ROF combine to make them absolutely feared in urban environments. Of course, you can kill one with a Molitov cocktail, but no one is perfect, right? I would never get in one of those in a MOUT environment, but they sure were great to have around! LOL Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. |
Author: | tritonal [ 07 Jan 2003, 15:21 ] |
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Combine the two-M113 with Vulcan/M1A1. One can be more moveable while the other can have tremendous brute-force. As for clearing buildings, I would think the Abrams should be really careful-The rounds they're using are so powerful they can possibly level buildings!(yikes) Especially that new OR-round |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 07 Jan 2003, 15:37 ] |
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Leveling buildings is just fine- means we don't have to go in and search them. Back in WWII we used to have heavy SP guns roll along right behind the grunts. If a single round was fired from a building, it was utterly demolished by heavy artillery firing in direct LOS mode. Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. |
Author: | tritonal [ 09 Jan 2003, 16:21 ] |
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I believe that some of the Shermans were fitted with a special 105mm gun that was specialized for demolishing buildings-it was called a... "building buster" (or something else for that effect). |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 10 Jan 2003, 02:47 ] |
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Dit it with the bigger 155mm and 8" guns too, lol. Buildings tend to be full of booby traps and land mines, so it's easier just to blow them up then to search them, lol. Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. |
Author: | tritonal [ 16 Jan 2003, 08:16 ] |
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The 120mm ordnance today probably equals the firepower of the older and bigger 155mm and 8" rounds. Check this site out and see if you can download the videos: http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/o ... LOSAT.html It makes the sabot round look like a nerf dart. Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 16 2003 4:18 PM |
Author: | M21 Sniper [ 17 Jan 2003, 00:05 ] |
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I spent several months in a 4.2" hvy mortar platoon, so yeah, i agree on the destructive power of mortars; however... mortars provide plunging fire, which is unsuitable for blowing holes in walls or targeting specific points of a building like direct fire artillery because moratr fire arrives at a very steep dive angle and impacts down through the roof. This is not to say that they are not useful in MOUT, because they are very effective, but they do have a different role to play than direct fire weapons systems. Mortars are great for dropping rounds on the backside of a building(ie firing over the bldg to kill what is in the street on the other side of it). Their very high ROF also makes them well suited for suppresion fires as well. The 4.2" had a lethal radius of 35 meters(Unclassified ![]() I like mortars just fine, but they suck to crew... Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead. |
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