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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2003, 17:58 
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http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... astmbt.pdf


With its superb integration of firepower,
mobility, and armor protection,
the M1A2 Abrams is very nearly the
ultimate incarnation of the main battle
tank (MBT). Although more advanced
design concepts have been published in
recent years, it will likely prove quite
difficult to produce an MBT sufficiently
superior (to the M1A2) to justify
the cost, so why not look for a better
idea?
The Missile Option
When Egyptian Saggers surprised Israeli
tankers in the 1973 Yom Kippur
War, there were many who proclaimed,
“The tank is dead!” A quarter-century
later, tank advocates point to the continued
use of the MBT as proof that the
best antitank weapon is still another
gun-armed tank. Yet it may be that the
missile proponents were not wrong in
their pronouncement — just premature.
Missiles that are guided to the target
by a human operator (e.g., TOW,
Dragon, Sagger) can be neutralized by
distracting or killing the gunner. This
would be analogous to World War II
dive bombers being fired on by a battleship’s
antiaircraft guns; disrupt the
pilot’s concentration and the bomb impacts
harmlessly into the sea.
But an electronic brain does not — as
far as we know — feel fear or get distracted
by nearby shellbursts. It also
has immensely faster reaction times
than a human. These factors make electronic
guidance far superior to human
control for guided missiles.
The self-guided missile has eclipsed
the large-caliber gun in naval surface
warfare. It is about to do so in the
realm of land combat. The tank cannon
has a maximum effective range of
about 3000 meters, and precise aim is
required to make a hit. The self-guided
missile, however, can — like Longbow
Hellfire — be effective to more than
8000 meters, and the electronic brain
continually corrects the flight path as
necessary.
Although Longbow Hellfire was designed
for the AH-64D Apache helicopter,
there is no obvious reason it
couldn’t be fired from an armored vehicle.
Indeed, at least one nation is apparently
developing a similar system.
According to the August/December
1993 issue of ASIAN MILITARY REVIEW,
India has developed the NAG, a
fire-and-forget antitank missile with a
range of six kilometers. It was planned
that the NAG would be the armament
for a tracked combat vehicle. With
ground surveillance radar (GSR) incorporated
into its fire control system,
such a combat vehicle could engage
targets through fog and smoke screens
that block thermal sights. U.S. tank
crewmen have never had to face a
weapon system with such capabilities.
In the United States, the self-guided
Javelin missile system began being issued
to the troops in mid-1996. Although
it was designed as a manportable,
antiarmor missile for infantry use,
there is a growing awareness that Javelin
has enormous potential as a vehiclemounted
weapon. For example, the
U.S. Marine Corps is investigating how
Javelin can be incorporated into the
new advanced amphibious assault vehicle
(AAAV). Another idea would have
single or multiple Javelin launchers installed
on the M113A3 armored personnel
carrier, thereby vastly increasing
the combat capability of the venerable
APC.
Because Javelin’s 2000-meter maximum
range is less than optimal for vehicle
employment, the follow-on to
TOW (FOTT) program is underway.
FOTT will also use fire-and-forget
technologies, but it will probably have
a maximum range of 4000-5000 meters.
MBT or FCS?
The Army’s modernization plan, as
made public in September 1996, calls
for continued upgrades to the Abrams
fleet, while conducting research on a
future combat system (FCS). The FCS
is expected to enter production around
2015, replacing the M1-series tanks.
Since the next generation armored
fighting vehicle is no longer referred to
as an MBT, can it be inferred that the
future combat system need not be a
tank as we know it today?
If self-guided missiles are chosen for
the primary armament of the FCS, a
number of advantages present themselves.
For one, it ought to be possible
to eliminate the turret assembly; this
would greatly simplify construction,
with a corresponding decrease in production
cost and vehicle weight. As
currently configured, an MBT needs a
turret to enable 360-degree target engagement
without changing hull direction.
At a traverse rate of, say, 40 degrees
per second, it would take over
four seconds to reverse the direction of
the gun tube. For the FCS, if vertical
launch is feasible, “traverse” could be
done electronically and instantaneously,
without any actual movement of the
launch tubes; for horizontal launch,
some form of physical traverse mechanism
might be necessary, though.
The Abrams’ maximum rate of fire is
about six rounds per minute; if a single
M1A2 were to engage a half dozen enemy
tanks, the Abrams would be subject
to return fire for nearly a full minute,
since each opponent would have to
be dealt with sequentially. On the other
hand, a properly-designed, missilearmed
FCS could lock onto all six en-
14 ARMOR — July-August 1997
The M1A2 Abrams:
The Last Main Battle Tank?
by Stanley C. Crist
“Since the next generation
armored fighting
vehicle is no longer
referred to as an MBT,
can it be inferred that
the future combat system
need not be a tank
as we know it today?”
emy vehicles simultaneously and salvo
fire one missile at each target in perhaps
less time than the M1A2 crew
would take to achieve its first kill. This
would give an FCS-equipped force a
great advantage when fighting outnumbered.
Ideally, the FCS would use a multipurpose
missile that can be employed
not only against armored vehicles, but
the entire array of ground and aerial
targets encountered on the battlefield.
As on modern naval vessels, it would
probably be wise to include a small- or
medium-caliber gun for close range
and low priority targets, but this would
depend on the capabilities of the missile
system.
Back to the Future
No doubt most MBT proponents will
object to the idea that a missile-armed
future combat system can make obsolete
the gun-armed main battle tank.
Perhaps they would find it worthwhile
to ponder the words of Rear Admiral
Austin M. Knight in his introduction to
the 1917 book, The United States Navy
— From the Revolution to Date:
“And through all its changes the
backbone of the fleet has continued to
be the fighting ship of large and steadily
increasing size, with powers of offense
and defense evenly balanced
upon the whole — recognizing the
menace of secondary enemies and
guarding against them as best it may,
but seeing its real opponent in the battleships
and dreadnoughts of the enemy.
The dreadnought of today has
succeeded, through gradual, not revolutionary,
development, to the line-of-battle
ship of two centuries ago. It may be
that this type is soon to become obsolete,
but the evidence that this is so appeals
far more strongly to the popular
imagination than to the seasoned judgment
of students of naval warfare.”
Substitute “battle tank” and “land
warfare” for the terms “battleship” and
“naval warfare,” and the paragraph
would read almost as if it were printed
in a current issue of ARMOR. Admiral
Knight’s words should stand as a note
of caution to those who think the MBT
ARMOR — July-August 1997 15
Lethality, range, and accuracy of the Harpoon antiship missile has enabled modern cruisers
and destroyers to become the Navy’s primary surface combatants, a role that used
to belong to the heavily-armored, direct-fire, big-gun battleships. (Photo: U.S. Navy)
As in naval warfare, aerial combat is now dominated by guided missiles; guns have
been relegated to the status of backup weapons. (Photo: U.S. Air Force)
Disturbing parallels to land warfare?
is here to stay. Just as the self-guided
missile has displaced the gun in naval
warfare, so is it sure to do in ground
combat. The question is, will the Armor
community follow Javelin and
Longbow Hellfire on the path to the future,
or will it stay on the same dead
end street that doomed the battleship to
oblivion?
Bibliography
Robin Fletcher, “The Crewing and Configuration
of the Future Main Battle Tank,” ARMOR,
May-June 1995.
George Forty, Tank Action—From The Great
War to the Gulf, Alan Sutton Publishing Limited,
1995.
Wes Glasgow, COL Christopher Cardine, and
David Latson, “The M1A2: Current and Future
Program Plans,” ARMOR, May-June
1996.
COL Frank Hartline, “Letters,” ARMOR, September-
October 1996.
Christopher T. Heun, “Army and Abrams Tank
Linked for the Long Haul,” National DEFENSE,
November 1996.
Peter M. Keating, “Agile, Elusive Armored Killer
Will Stalk 21st Century Arena,” National
DEFENSE, September 1996.
MAJ James K. Morningstar, “Javelins and Skirmishers
on the Battlefield,” ARMOR, May-
June 1996.
Francis J. Reynolds, The United States Navy—
From the Revolution to Date, P.F. Collier and
Son, 1917.
David Schueler, “Battlewagons Eternal: A History
of the Iowa Class Battleships,” COMMAND,
Jan-Feb 1992.
Dr. Asher H. Sharoni and Lawrence D. Bacon,
“Forward Area Air-Ground Defense,” ARMOR,
July-August 1996.
CPT Harold L. Spurgeon and Stanley C. Crist,
“The Tank Is Dead — Long Live the Tank!”
ARMOR, March-April 1987.
Hellfire, seen here being fired from an M113, can hit targets as far away as 8000 meters—
almost three times as far as the Abrams! If adapted to the Longbow Hellfire system, ground
forces would have a heretofore unknown combat capability. (Photo: Rockwell International)
The shape of things to come? A missile-armed Future Combat System might resemble
the Bradley-LOSAT prototype shown here. A very low silhouette is made possible by a
turretless configuration. (Photo: Loral Vought Systems)
Stanley Crist is a former tank
commander, having served with
the 3d Battalion, 185th Armor.
He is a previous contributor to
ARMOR.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2003, 19:46 
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hopefully there will be no more need for any weapons soon, man will have turned his efforts to the conquest of space and not other men

indeed, indeed, indeed


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2003, 20:10 
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many armor systems already mount missles so why not keep the best of both worlds, heavily armored missle "tanks". And you keep the gun cause you cant trust a "spook" to never come up with a counter to your missle system. Even today with all the lectro gizmos you can shake a stick at, it's still pretty hard to "jam" a gun round. Long live kinetic energy, it's not just a good idea, it's the law (of physics <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> )

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2003, 22:23 
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Boomer, that was also my approximate thinking when I read the article. According to that article, by 2015 they'll retire the Abrams. I'd love to see what they come up with next because I don't see how that system can ever be topped.

Did you catch the poiny they brought up about the fact that sea guns are now replaced by missile systems?
I don't think that will be the case with land warfare for the reason of them just having different types of variables and dynamics


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 00:06 
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agreed on all points. A ship at sea is a lot easier target for misslry than an armored whatever amongst hills and various buildings.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 05:20 
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That "ground surveillance radar" would make a great HARM target wouldn't it? It's hard to do that to a laser range finder.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 11:54 
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unfortunatly the HARM is almost useless these days, flicking the radar on and off breaks the lock. We fired MANY of them in Kosovo/Bosnia and IIRC only 1 of the HARMs hit anything!

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 11:55 
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if they finish the AARGM it will increase the range of HARM to about 100miles, give it an active seeker,more speed and folding wings.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 12:28 
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See, that just proves you always need something tested and proven, like the trust-worthy cannon system.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 12:32 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
unfortunatly the HARM is almost useless these days, flicking the radar on and off breaks the lock. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I though the HARM stores the location of the emitter, and flies to that point if the emitter stops?

Actually, something like a Chapprall (sp?) launcher with the anti-radar version of the Sidewinder (Sidearm?) might be more useful than a HARM...it could be there with the armored units instead of having to rely on air cover.

Ted

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 13:06 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I though the HARM stores the location of the emitter, and flies to that point if the emitter stops? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

it does but it isnt nearly good enough as the recent conflicts have shown. Currently the HARM is being upgraded with a GPS/inertial unit that should help, hopefully a lot, as well as some sort of IFF system to keep it from homing on friendly RADARs.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 14:49 
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Gives new meaning to "Going in HARMS way", doesn't it!<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 16:10 
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'Nuff said!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2003, 20:30 
There is a new seeker for harm called the 'Quickbolt', it stores the position of the enemy radar in memory, and ignores everything else after launch(in one mode).

As far as the tank becoming obsolete, it is as ridiculous as missiles making, in order.....fighter guns, warship guns, and finally tank guns obsolete.

Frankly, a CIWS for MBTs is easily technicly doable, but the risk to tanks- despite that guys assertions- is minimal.

And 120mm main gun range is more like 6000 meters, not 3000...

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Edited by - m21 sniper on Jan 06 2003 6:20 PM


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2003, 18:55 
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Sniper, have you heard of that new obtsacle-reducing round, XM-908? It's just like the MPAT only that it replaces the proximity fuse with a steel nose. I have read that the round can take a 6x6x6 concrete obstacle block and turn it into rubble. Thuse it would be useful for reducing bunkers and buildings. It is presently deployed with the forces in Korea but I wonder if they'll bring some to the Gulf for the reason that if the battle spills over to the streets of Baghdad, then it will be in their best advantage to use that munition.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2003, 19:19 
I havn't heard of that one Tritonal, but if it does what you state it will be a very useful addition.

MOUT is the only place where an M-1 is likely to operate that it is totally at the grunts mercy, so anything they can get to help them out there would really help to reduce their vulnerability.

In MOUT settings armor generally sucks- much like infantry on flat open terrain...

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2003, 19:39 
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Here's an ammo link:
http://www.defensedaily.com/progprof/ar ... n_ammo.pdf

The tank is mobile, protected, and has immense firepower. If the preparations are made then the tank could be a valuable asset to MOUT:
http://www.specialoperations.com/mout/moutpoimootw.html
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6453/moutpoi32.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2003, 04:09 
Good data on the 120mm series tritonal. I'm sure the DAT's will be thrilled to have beehive rounds again!

As far as tanks in MOUT, yes, when heavily supported by dismount infantry they are effective as a general support weapon, and can be a great aid in clearing buildings with main gun and heavy machine gun fire, but at the same time their most vulnerable positions are always exposed, and often times they will not be able to return fire at infantry(they are limited to +/-20 degrees of barrel elevation) firing from either roof tops or defilades.
They are also subject to deliberate obstacle placement to funnel them into a 270 degree kill zone that the enemy has presighted with heavy guns. That can get really ugly really fast for the tankers.
So they rely very heavily on their Infantry to protect their flanks top, and rear, and we rely on them to blow shit up. It's a pretty happy arrangement for the most part.... ;)

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2003, 04:13 
But just for the record......the M162A2 Vulcan air defense vehicle is probably the meanest SOB around in MOUT. They combine super high elevation, very fast traverse, a short barrel(that wont smack into buildings as the turret slews like an M-1 barrel does) and an immense ROF combine to make them absolutely feared in urban environments.
Of course, you can kill one with a Molitov cocktail, but no one is perfect, right?

I would never get in one of those in a MOUT environment, but they sure were great to have around!

LOL

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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2003, 15:21 
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Combine the two-M113 with Vulcan/M1A1. One can be more moveable while the other can have tremendous brute-force.
As for clearing buildings, I would think the Abrams should be really careful-The rounds they're using are so powerful they can possibly level buildings!(yikes) Especially that new OR-round


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2003, 15:37 
Leveling buildings is just fine- means we don't have to go in and search them.

Back in WWII we used to have heavy SP guns roll along right behind the grunts.
If a single round was fired from a building, it was utterly demolished by heavy artillery firing in direct LOS mode.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2003, 16:21 
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I believe that some of the Shermans were fitted with a special 105mm gun that was specialized for demolishing buildings-it was called a... "building buster" (or something else for that effect).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2003, 02:47 
Dit it with the bigger 155mm and 8" guns too, lol.

Buildings tend to be full of booby traps and land mines, so it's easier just to blow them up then to search them, lol.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2003, 08:16 
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The 120mm ordnance today probably equals the firepower of the older and bigger 155mm and 8" rounds.

Check this site out and see if you can download the videos:
http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/o ... LOSAT.html

It makes the sabot round look like a nerf dart.



Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 16 2003 4:18 PM


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2003, 00:05 
I spent several months in a 4.2" hvy mortar platoon, so yeah, i agree on the destructive power of mortars; however... mortars provide plunging fire, which is unsuitable for blowing holes in walls or targeting specific points of a building like direct fire artillery because moratr fire arrives at a very steep dive angle and impacts down through the roof.

This is not to say that they are not useful in MOUT, because they are very effective, but they do have a different role to play than direct fire weapons systems.

Mortars are great for dropping rounds on the backside of a building(ie firing over the bldg to kill what is in the street on the other side of it).
Their very high ROF also makes them well suited for suppresion fires as well.

The 4.2" had a lethal radius of 35 meters(Unclassified :), and could put a full 30rd FFE on target in about 90 seconds, including the call for fire and adjustment round, if neccesary.
I like mortars just fine, but they suck to crew...

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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