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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 10:10 
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Fatigue, stress, mechanical malfunctions and a disastrous series of errors beset members of the Army's 507th Maintenance Company as they neared Nasiriya, Iraq, on March 23, according to a draft report from the Army.

The result was an Iraqi ambush that left 11 soldiers dead and seven others captured, the report said.

This is the incident in which Pfc. Jessica Lynch was wounded when her vehicle was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade. The event was among the highest-profile struggles U.S. forces encountered in Iraq. Lynch would later be rescued in a raid on an Iraqi hospital. Her best friend Pfc. Lori Piestewa would die of wounds from the assault. (More on the attack)

Elements of the unit found themselves "in a desperate situation due to a navigational error caused by the combined effects of the operational pace, acute fatigue, isolation and harsh environmental conditions," the report said. (Interactive: The 507th's wrong turn)

Soldiers and vehicles from the 507th began what would become a 42-hour push toward Nasiriya March 20 from their camp just inside Kuwait. The outfit was deployed from its home post of Fort Bliss, Texas.

They were under the leadership of Capt. Troy King, who had misunderstood his briefing orders, the report said.

King thought he was to follow "Route Blue" to a region south of Najaf, about 100 miles south of Baghdad and northwest of Nasiriya.

Instead, the convoy should have followed "Route Blue" to "Route Jackson" and back to "Route Blue," which would have taken it west of Nasiriya instead of directly through the town.

In the dark early morning hours of March 23, elements of the convoy, which had become separated from the other vehicles and troops, crossed through the center of Nasiriya and emerged at the north of the city before realizing a mistake had been made, the report said.

The soldiers in those elements had experienced some small arms fire in their trek through the city, it said.

A decision was made to make a U-turn and go back through the city to find the correct route.

The convoy was already plagued by vehicles running out of gas or getting stuck in the sand, and the distances between vehicles increased with each new problem.

Iraqis also had placed debris and disabled vehicles in the roadway to block U.S. troops.

As some elements of the convoy searched for a turn they had missed earlier, they came under a "torrent" of fire from Iraqis for as long as 90 minutes, the draft said.

Lynch was captured and then treated at the same hospital, where U.S. forces eventually rescued her April 1. The other soldiers who were captured were recovered about two weeks later.

During the firefight, some soldiers tried to fight back but were hampered by malfunctioning weapons and debris in the road.

The draft report said Pfc. Patrick Miller was surrounded by enemy fire and may have killed as many as nine Iraqis before he was captured.

Miller later apparently told his Iraqi interrogators the pieces of paper inside his helmet were prices for water pumps.

They were actually radio frequency codes, and Miller later received a Silver Star and a Purple Heart for his actions.

The draft said Sgt. James Riley made a lifesaving decision when he surrendered himself, Spc. Edgar Hernandez and Spc. Shoshana Johnson after their M-16 rifles jammed.

The Army is still investigating the deaths of the 11 soldiers to determine whether they were executed.

The draft report concluded the soldiers "fought the best they could until there was no longer a means to resist."

"Every soldier performed honorably and each did his or her duty," it said.


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 10:28 
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Not to be overly critical but aren't soldier's expected to keep their weapons cleaned and servicable. Multiple jammed weapons seems like leadership and training failure.


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 10:39 
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Ever operate in a desert enviroment with M16s?, also bare in mind these are not "infantrymen" their training emphesis is not in engageing the enemy but the minum qualification with the basic firearm. Tired, fatiged and ill equipped to deal with what happened to them. Its tragic and unfortunate, and the Capt made some grave errors, which also leads into mind what type of command he ran.

Im impressed that the will to fight and live was strong in them. and that those that had operational security items were brave enough to conceal them as POWS and to mislead their interrogators on their value. "Code sheets described as "waterpump prices" Very smart young man.


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 10:57 
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Quote from one of the fathers in a cnn interview.

KIEHL: As I understand it, the United States Marine Corps sends all of their troops through a basic training. Then they go to a three-week combat training school and then on to their individual training. The United States Army sends their soldiers through basic training and on to their individual school. I feel the military needs to ensure that each soldier is trained adequately to defend themselves and their unit. James was a computer repair technician. That's all the real, formal schooling he had, as far as the military went. They did do ground exercises, but nowhere near the training that they needed for al Nasiriya.

The link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/07/10/cnna.kiehl/index.html


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 10:58 
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Not saying they were not brave or did a great job. The question is how do you prepare in the future to avoid this.


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 11:58 
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I'll be the first to say I am just a crew chief and I cant consider myself a soldier. I give anyone that can call herself or himself a real soldier a big 4.0 just for taking that step. <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> Gotta be proud even if it ends up being a lack of training. But thats just my very humble opinion.................

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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2003, 16:59 
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I DONT KNOW HAWG166,IF SOME "INDIAN" TRIED AND TAKE-OUT A CREWDAWGS JET ON THE GROUND,I THINK IT WOULD BE A REAL BATTLE!!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

THATS JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS,EVEN IF THEY HAD ADVANCED TRAINING,DOESNT MEAN WHEN OUT NUMBERED 10-1 YOU CAN WIN.
ITS ONE OF THOSE PERSONAL THINGS THAT YOU DO AT A MOMENTS NOTICE

I SURE AND THE HELL CANT JUDGE THEM ON HOW THEY REACTED,

BUT IF THEY FIND THAT CAPT AT FAULT,I STILL COULDNT POINT THE FINGER AT HIM SAYING ITS "YOUR FAULT"

PRESS TO TEST

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2003, 06:19 
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[quote]
Ever operate in a desert enviroment with M16s?, also bare in mind these are not "infantrymen" their training emphesis is not in engageing the enemy but the minum qualification with the basic firearm. Tired, fatiged and ill equipped to deal with what happened to them. Its tragic and unfortunate, --------

They had their .50 cal jam and another automatic weapon. Let alone numerous M-16s jam. Combat types had serious jamming problems also. Part of the problem was the Army issued the wrong lube for weapons maintenance. It sucked up sand.

The 507th was in a running firefight for 60-90mins. Part of the problem of going in too light we couldn't protect the LOCs and this happened.

Another problem, we don't train support troops well enough for combat. They probably had hand me down weapons also that required more TLC.

Lessons were learned and we added more combat troops to the LOCs.

Jack


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2003, 11:18 
First of all, everyone needs to remember these troops were REMFS. That explains why they were lost. However, they fought pretty hard considering the circumstances.

HINT FOR ANYONE THAT MAY FIND THEMSELVES IN A DESERT COMBAT CONDITION:

Do NOT use oil in your weapon, it is nothing but a dust magnet. Clean the firearm as normal, but instead of applying a light film of oil, ensure that there is NO oil residue WHATSOEVER on your firearm.
If you oil almost any rifle in sandy conditions it will jam, end of story. BTW, this story is a compelling example of why so many grunts go to the extra trouble of packing along a 12 gauge pump shotgun 'just in case'.

I would humbly say the O-3's largest failure was in not declaring an overrun situation to command. In such cases any and all TACAIR in range is emergency retasked to the encircled unit to provide a perimeter of steel.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2003, 18:15 
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GOOD OLE' PUMP SHOTGUN WOULD OF COME IN MIGHTY HANDY!,

FOR SUPPORT PERSONEL THAT SHOULD BE THE WEAPON THEY ISSUE.

PRESS TO TEST

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2003, 19:03 
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Mossberg Mariner in Marinecote matte finish. 9-round mag and all the Federal 3" 15-pellet 00-Buck you can carry, and every third round a slug. Might not get 'em past 25 yards, but you ever tried to jam one?

Either that or an AK variant in .223 (My MAK-90 is the most jam resistant autoloader I've ever seen.)



"The First Rule in a Gunfight: Have a gun. If you violate this rule, no other rules apply" Jeff Cooper


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2003, 14:16 
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I'd also like to point out that(in my experience) with proper maintanance the M-16 rarely jambs at all. Infact the worst looking rifle I ever had, in basic, was so old I could twist the upper receiver and lower receiver in such a way as to produce a 3/16" crack between them and I never had a jamb. Of course I "battle buddy" had one with a faulty firing pin, so suppose I had a lucky draw <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

1. Don't look conspicuous; it draws fire.
2. Never draw fire; it irritates everyone around you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2003, 14:36 
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[quote]


I would humbly say the O-3's largest failure was in not declaring an overrun situation to command. In such cases any and all TACAIR in range is emergency retasked to the encircled unit to provide a perimeter of steel.

-------------

Dunno if he had the radios and probably had no clue how to call in TACAIR or probably arty. Support troops had some big comm problems.

Think this was during a sandstorm also.

I do hope the Army cranks up a better training program for them. Although some of the troops are probably receiving lots of OJT in Iraq and Afghan now.

Jack


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2003, 14:46 
The problem is that REMF units balk at that training.

They're mainly there to pay for college, and many of 'em don't consider themselves 'real soldiers'.

If the 0-3 didn't know proper proecedures for calling in CAS, that's his own fault. I guess he should've read his FM's a little more.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2003, 14:48 
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Sniper has a point... I was one of the only Remfs I knew that liked MRE's better than the chowhall food...

Overkill??? I'd kill a fly with a howitzer if I had one.

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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2003, 12:03 
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Stop defending the 507th to a fault. I realize they were support personnel and they acted courageously. But there's no need for contrived reasons for why the weapons jammed. They weren't maintained and cleaned properly in the dessert environment.


Also, read this article, dealing with the wrong turn issue:
<i>
Heavy trucks, rough terrain and weather conditions kept them bogged down and the first mistake was more than likely made at an American checkpoint.

Reyes, "The U.S. soldiers at that check point had assumed that all personnel in the convoy had already come through and just basically waved them through which basically put them on this other route that paralleled this other route that they were suppose to take."


The 507th were sent in the wrong direction .. they didn't make a wrong turn which has been widely reported by other media outlets.

That is something several soldiers involved in the ambush have told KFOX all along.

Tarik Jackson, Wounded 507th Soldier, "It's probably no secret everybody saying that we made a wrong turn, things like that of that nature, but we didn't, we were just going where we were supposed to go."

Cpl. Damien Luten, Wounded 507th Soldier, "We were just following the convoy. That's all we were doing. I'm not quite sure if we made a wrong turn or anything. I was in the passenger side."

</i>


Edited by - ViperTTB on Jul 28 2003 11:25 AM


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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2003, 12:17 
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Tell me Viper how many firefights have you been in? Ever had someone trying to shoot at you? Also I didn't see myself or Sniper Defending the 507th to a fault.

Sniper merely pointed out one of the REASONS the weapons may have jammed. He also pointed out that the CO screwed the pooch on calling in CAS, and that the company likely didn't train on combat manuevers as much as they should have.

EzyJack pointed out that there was a sandstorm... thats not poor maintanance thats nature (or god deciding you will not have a good day)

So just who are you accusing of defending them to a fault? me? Sniper? Ezyjack? SgtGoose? MrMudd? perhaps I could make a more informed defence if I was aware to whom you were speaking.

Overkill??? I'd kill a fly with a howitzer if I had one.



Edited by - Stinger on Jul 28 2003 11:27 AM

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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2003, 12:30 
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Stinger:

I wasn't responding to anything you said. Sandy enviroments are bad for guns. The sand can lead to jams. But the U.S. Army did question the maintenance of weapons on the part of the 507th in the report? Cleaning weapons two or three times a day is not emphasized for support personnnel so I am surely not blaming them -- they acted bravely.



Edited by - ViperTTB on Jul 28 2003 11:41 AM


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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2003, 13:39 
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Sometimes I'm just an overly sensative asshole <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

But I was trying to point out that there hasn't been a whole lot of defending. And as far as that goes they likely weren't taking care of their weapons. Like Snipe pointed out the idea that "your weapon is your life" doesn't really take root in the minds of most(likely better than 50%) REMFs.

Overkill??? I'd kill a fly with a howitzer if I had one.

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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2003, 14:33 
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OK, maybe I was out of line.

One thing that I did hear from the family member of a Marine who went through the place where the 507th was ambushed is that the 507th's weapons were rusty, not just dirty. Perhaps the Army gave them poor quality hand me downs, as was suggested before.


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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2003, 21:01 
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can graphite powder be used in a sandy environment? or is it too sticky also?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2003, 00:25 
In a sandy environment you either use Teflon powder, or nothing at all. Under NO circumstances should any oil based(wet)lubricant be used.

Ever.

I hate to pour it on REMF's like this, cause they actually do very important jobs, and much as i hate to admit it, the pointy tip people need them....BUT....REMF's do tend to take so many of the soldiering skills the typical grunt see's as essential as little more than a joke.

Newsflash, those skills are no joke.

Things like proper maintenance of weapons and equipment, proper radio procedures, proper convoy spacing, and proper LANDNAV are critical in a battlefield environment.

When they are ignored en masse you end up with the first overrun US Army unit(or any US unit) in over 30 years spanning some 9 conflicts.






"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2003, 07:12 
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Is the radio code "Broken Arrow" still used for those situations?


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2003, 14:24 
No.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."


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PostPosted: 30 Jul 2003, 13:49 
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Maybe only for our Battelnet group efforts. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> Albeit a lack of emotions during any one of those, if Broken Arrow is a usefull term <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

"There are itches only Special Forces can scratch"

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