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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2003, 21:41 
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I decided to make up my own mid-sized military (around 80,000 Army). You can take a look at it at the link below

http://ttb.20m.com/MILITARY.htm

Basically the Army includes of (9) Brigade Combat Teams [3 in the Reserves, 6 Active], (3) Armored Bdes, (1) Air Assault Bde, (1) Peacekeeping Bde, (1) Marine Bde, and (1) Special Ops Bde.

The Brigade Combat Team consists of a Light Infantry Brigade plus a company of tanks, a company of IFV's, and a company of armored scout vehicles to provide some combat punch. It also has a Howitzer Artillery Battalion and an Aviation Battalion with scout, attack, and utility choppers (OH-6; AH-6; H-92; EH-101). Unarmored Mechanization for the light infantry is within the Support Group.

The Armored Bde consists (2) Tank Battalions with Leopards and (1) IFV Battalion with CV90's, plus artillery, recon, and aviation.

The Air Assault has (3) Airborne battalions of light infantry, with one of the battalions being Parachute capable. The Aviation includes 20 EH-101 to move a full battalion of troops, 24 light attack helicopters, and 8 scout helicopters pursuant to the execution of an air assault.

The Peacekeeping Brigade features (3) Peacekeeping Battalions. Each has three companies of infantry trained for policing, crowd control, and peacekeeping, and one company with civil affairs and translation personnel. To deal with dangerous situations there is a company of armored vehicles.

The Marine Bde has three self-contained Marine Expeditionary Groups (MEG's). They are pure light infantry, with no mechanization, but with some aviation. I'll talk about them later, so hang on.

The Special Ops Brigade has (2) Commando Battalions, basically like the 75th Rangers in concept. It also has one battalion with 36 12-man Teams, like a reinforced Green Beret battalion. Helicopter aviation is self-contained. Fixed-wing aviation in terms of parachute-capable planes, CAS, and tankers is available in the Air Force.

In addition to these self-contained combat units there's a supplemental aviation, artillery, Military Police, and mortar battalion that can supplement forces.

The Army has four "Combat Groups". Basically the only unit permanently assigned to a Combat Group is the headquarters and command element. If more than one brigade is involved in a real operation overseas than a "Combat Group" is sent over and all the Army units are assigned to it. It has command over all the Army units involved with the mission until the mission is over. And it is totally scaleable, so forces can be added and subtracted over the operation. And it can reconfigure the forces for optimization. For example, the "Combat Group" has qualified armor, artillery, aviation, and support commanders so the individual armor, artillery, aviatiom, and support assets of each brigade can be consolidated. For instance, if there are three Brigade Command Teams, the three total tank companies from them can be made into a Tank Battalion under an armor officer from the "Army Group". The brigade combat team commander can be reduced to having just his infantry brigade under his command, although that would be extreme.

The four Combat Groups are commanded by a Major General. The Army Corps is commanded by a Lt. General and would be used whenever a force of more than three brigades were assigned for a mission.


Next is the Air Force. It is divided into three identical Air Forces, one in reserve, two active. Each has 44 Strike Fighters, 32 A-21's (made up name for a 21st century A-10), 14 KC-767's, 8 C-767's, 24 C-39's (21st Century C-130), 6 Learjets, and 12 E-767 (combing the Sentry and JStar). It also has 6 HH-101 CSAR choppers plus (2) HC-39 planes for CSAR refueling and paratrooping. And there is also one Special Ops Air Force unit which I talked about earlier.

There are (2) "Air Force Teams", under the command of a Major General. These are again command and control structures like the "Army Group". They are in command when Air Force units are deployed overseas or for a real mission. There are also (2) Air Force Groups. These are used for command and control when a large amount of Air Force units are deployed.

The Navy is small because I think good Navy's are expensive as hell, even when compared to Air Forces' which are expensive as hell. It is better to not try at all than to do a half-baked job IMO. Without lots of money (and with 80,000-persons in the Army lets assume this a medium-size county with medium-sized resources) it isn't worth trying. The Navy has 8 destroyers and 12 frigates. (The Coast Guard handles patrols, law enforcement, and civilian SAR) However, I did include (3) Amphibious ships. That is something I think worthwhile to invest in. Basically these ships can each house one Marine Expeditionary Group from the 10th Marine Brigade from the Army, along with its 8 helicopters. The 10th Marines have three Marine Expeditionary Groups (MEG), and there are three ships so most of the year one MEG can be deployed forward. They can evacuate embassy personnel and native people living overseas, and do those kinds of things; protect interests overseas.

The Navy also has command and control scaleable structures like the other services. There are (2) Navy Group Commands that would command a few ships and these are commanded by a 1-star Admiral. And there is one (1) Fleet Command that would command several ships and it is commanded by a two-star.

And then there is a "Joint Command", under the command of a three-star from any service. There are four of these.

Lets say this military decides to help the U.S. and send troops to Afghanistan. From the Army they'll send the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 15th Air Assault Brigade, and 19th Peacekeeping Brigade, plus the 1st Aviation Battalion to provide more helicopter lift. In addition, one Special Ops Commando Battalion and several 12-man teams have been secretley ordered to deploy.

The Air Force will send (2) Combat Support Squadrons (32 A-21's) and no strike fighters (the U.S. has assured them they'll provide air superioriy, bombers, and air control). THe Air Force will also send over elements from its tanker squadron, heavy lift squadron, medium lift squadron, and rescue squadron.

The Navy will maintain one of their Amphibious Ships, with a Marine Expeditionary Group embarked, offshore for emergency situations.

In this situation, a "Army Group" command would control the (3) Brigades, the supplemental Aviation Battalion, and would have administrative, though not operational, command over the Special Ops Commando Battalion.

The "Air Force Group" command would control the CAS planes, tankers, and lift planes.

The Navy would not need a "Navy Group" command because only one ship is involved. The commander of the amphibious ship would simply command his ship based on orders.

The "Joint Command" would have the "Army Group", "Air Force Group", and Amphibious Ship unders it command. They would report to and follow the orders of the Joint Command. The Joint Command would be well staffed with mostly Army officers, many Air Force officers, and a few Navy officers. The Joint Command would also have a "Special Operations Command" within it, which would have operational command over all assets.

The mission lasts 6 months. At that point the brigades and squadrons return home, and the Army Group, Air Group, and Joint Command have no combat units any longer assigned to them. Eventually they'll be another mission and different units will be assigned to them.

The End.


Edited by - ViperTTB on Aug 18 2003 04:54 AM


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2003, 02:40 
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just a quick note , the AWACS JSTARS replacement is to be called the E-10A

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2003, 05:16 
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Wow. Pretty comprehensive layout.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2003, 16:10 
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Location: osan
You need sam supression wild weasles. F15 do a great job but the real airforce uses the f16 of wich 2 can do 40% of the job 1 15 can do

get muddy


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2003, 18:08 
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I didn't really specify what fighter would be used because I don't know if this county would be given a F-16 contract by the U.S.

In whatever case, some of the 132 Strike Fighters would be designated for SEAD Wild Weasel with the special targeting pod.


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2003, 18:36 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You need sam supression wild weasles. F15 do a great job but the real airforce uses the f16 of wich 2 can do 40% of the job 1 15 can do

get muddy
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Dude your pretty Dense. the F15C does not operate in Sead Missions. the F15E does pack an agm-88 like 90% of multirole fighters today. But its mission is Deep Strike, with a self protection feature.

It is not a Mission equiped Weasel aircraft

Secondly I flew CJ's for 6 years with another 6 months in the F4g. I never had a problem with the SEAD Mission being Accomplished.

WTF are you Smokeing? 40%?





Edited by - MrMudd on Aug 18 2003 5:38 PM


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2003, 21:37 
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There is one 15E set up with the weasle package at nellis. It kicked the 16s a$$ everywhich way until sundown just costed a lot more. look into it i did. I crewed the4s and out the last ones in the bone yard. And if the cj is so much better than the f-4g why during Vigalant Warrior (in 94) were we sent back in and the 16s sat on the ground for the duration. could it be frying circut cards. Plus wouldnt you rather have a 2 seater weasel. to much for one person to do.


get muddy


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 00:02 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
There is one 15E set up with the weasle package at nellis. It kicked the 16s a$$ everywhich way until sundown just costed a lot more. look into it i did. I crewed the4s and out the last ones in the bone yard. And if the cj is so much better than the f-4g why during Vigalant Warrior (in 94) were we sent back in and the 16s sat on the ground for the duration. could it be frying circut cards. Plus wouldnt you rather have a 2 seater weasel. to much for one person to do.


get muddy
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Im really going to love turning your arrogant assumptions inside out on this one. You want to argue with an experianced Combat Weasel Driver, well here we go...

lets get the Facts Straight Shall we

The F15E you are refering to was a test Concept to integrate the F15's Precision Direction Finding (PDF)and HTS target Pod. Guess what the Concept Failed. I would Know I was a Test Pilot-Engineer in the Program. A fielded HTS system could not be integrated into the F15e without severely starting from the ground up and redesigning the systems, and or trying to integrate a new system from scratch.

Next. The idea of 2 seats is highly bogus at best. THE F16 (JETS)HTS System does not require a WSO. Their is no system for him to operate. The CJ System even outperforms the EA6B 4 man Crew and 2Man Viking Crew. I know this too BTDT!

The F4G's weapon systems layout severely lacking in so many ways. To decipher, Track Multiple Ground Targets. Its RWR Threat Warning System sets were Archaic. It was a dinosaur that need to be put down.

The F-4 can only pull 7G in sustained turns, which was acceptable for the 60's time, it can only do so by rapidly bleeding off energy (losing speed and/or altitude) the Transient Ability of the F-4 to change its maneuver (that is, to roll rapidly while pulling high Gs) was poor. Weaseling is a high G enviroment that the F4 cannot survive without burning off all its fuel, Secondly it cannot accelerate to the speeds an F16 can. Next is the aspect angle of the aircraft. a Soldier on the ground can pick it up visually from over 30nm away.

You will not see an f16 until after its bombs have gone off in your face, and thats only after it has pulled out of a dive.

Their is no room in a weasel enviroment for a "air Crew Commitee."

We utilise differnt SEAD warfighting methods now that make the 2 aircrew force feedback system obsolete. Whats the Backseater going to do? Give the enemy the finger while hes trying to get a dinasaur slow inefficient system to sh00t the ducks while the pilot is rowing the boat finding a safe spot in the sky.

Its better to have several weasels to hunt like a pack of wolves datalinked together seeing the overall battle and players unfold this is proper force feedback in a combat enviroment.

Let me tell you first hand Weaseling in the Balkans required a whole new understanding of a SEAD application. The terrain was Hostile and blind. The surface threats systems were better, and the Crews were better than our past advesaries. Fly over a mountain blind and oblivious to a threat, Into the emitter, to be fired on immediatly with no warning but a lock and Inbound threat. An f4's acceleration and 7g limitation will not save it. It is a lost cause . The F4 G was a Sniper and detection system, it was well suited hanging back 30-20 miles and sending the F16 or an A10 in to do the dirty work. It doesnt have the ability work in the passive detection and launch threat of today.

The F4 Airframe no matter what systems are put into it is a Death Wish in todays SEAD enviroment.

Now lets talk the F16 Block 50/52 CJ/DJ.

The new System employs ALQ-119 Electronic Jamming Pod for self protection. F-18s and EA-6Bs are HARM capable, the F-16 provides the ability to use the HARM in its most effective mode with the Joint Emitter Targeting System (JETS), which facilitates the use of HARM's most effective mode when launched from any JETS capable aircraft.

Secondly The F4G required the EF111 Raven to provide Jamming Protection. And above all another F16 Block 40 MIDS linked system during the F16-F4G Hunter killer Era. To manuever and kill the threats.

Now all we have left is the EA6B Prowler, S-3 Viking and some Special Mission C-130s that have taken on this Jammer mission.

Now you want to go into the What happaned in 94 Episode. Very Simple Explanation 91-93 Build F16 Block 50 Cj's with a new improved system that was designed procured in 4 years and put in service, from the Lessons learned during the "20 year F4 Weasel Development era that later included the F16-F4 Data Link system." Imagine that a New system that needs bugs worked out of it. Every aircraft on the flightline today experiances this. We still havnt seen the F22 and F-35 put into service have we?

Systems fail when they enter service. Nothing new. They took a 2 man System and reduced it to a pod and a integration to the 16s Avionics.

Sure the F16CJ needs to be improved, but it has nothing to do with the F4. It all has to do with the evolving SAM technology that are hitting the Battlefield and being field tested in countries we have and are haveing Combat operations against. That means more lethal, better detecting, better manuevering, and harder backdoor hitting weapons being fielded.

So tell me, why do you want to take Grandpa that is well past his prime in design and ability to go toe to toe with a Mike Tyson. hes going to get hit so hard there will be no leaves left in the family tree.






Edited by - MrMudd on Aug 18 2003 11:41 PM


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 00:35 
Fight nice.....fight nice.

All friends here.....all friends here.

Deep breaths....very deep breaths.

That is all.

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 01:25 
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EXCELLENT stuff Mudd, lemme ask you since your so knee deep in everything. Will the AARGM seeker get integrated to a new missle airframe or just stuck onto the HARM body, which I think is drag exxesive for the carrying jet.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 01:46 
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Lets discuss angles and arcs..

Self protection Defensive manuevering....


Simple physics.

F=m*a, right? Nearly every pilot is familiar with that equation. are you Koobster?

For a turning aircraft (missle or plane) the radial acceleration is a=(V^2)/R. The tighter the turn (R), the higher the accelleration. Mass is constant, so the tighter the turn the higher the force required to maintain the turn.

Note also, that the accelleration goes as the SQUARE of velocity. Double the speed, QUADRUPLE the force required to maintain the turn.

Now, realize that the amount of lift force that the plane can produce to maintain a turn is directly proportional to the area of the wings & controll surfaces of the aircraft.

Now think about the size of the "wings" on a missle.

Now think about the size of the wings on an f16.

No way in HELL a SAM can out-turn a viper, especially considering that suppression fights pretty much NEVER take place at supersonic speeds, but missles are almost always supersonic when they reach their target.

Granted, some missles weigh a lot less than a f16, but the relative size of the control surfaces of an sam, combined with the enormous speeds at which they travel, means that their turning radius is HUGE. What they can do, is make SMALL adjustments very quickly (low mass, low momentum, easy to change direction (slightly) in a short amount of time)

The ability of a missle to keep a lock on a fighter jet is due to the rate of closure. A pilot has to react WAY before the missle is upon him. Therefore the missle can react to the pilot with plenty of space to make a wide turn. Wide turns are all that can be made by a missle with a few square feet of control surface area, going Mach 3.

However, at 200 to 400 knots (the speed at which much of air combat maneuvering takes place) a viper (or hornet, Eagle, Tomcat, Tornado, Mirage, whathaveyou) can make a much tighter turn than a missle could ever hope to make. 9 to 12 g's If a pilot can make such a tight turn at the right time, i.e. after the missle has closed to a range such that it can't pull lead on the aircrafts trajectory, but before the missle has closed to a range that the viper will not be out of the way before impact, then he will out maneuver the missle.

Thing is, this window of opportunity is very small: less than a second. A pilot is much better off using countermeasures (flares, chaff) in conjunction with such a manuever. Then the tracking device of the missle is fooled long enough that it doesn't correct its path until the viper is already out of the missle's range.

No sam will "loop around" and re-acquire their target, as a torpedo does. They simply don't have enough fuel, given how LARGE their turning radius is for a "loop around". Any target re-acquisition abilities that these missiles have is for tracking while still on path to the target, (i.e. the missle has not PASSED by the target already) say, if lock is lost due to countermeasures, weather, ETC...

So again...what place does the F4 have in Suppresion warfare.....
If you want to maintain that argument. lets scrap the F16s... Add a butload of rotary racks to a C-130, C-141, C-5, C-17 your DHL dash-8 Rental, pack it full of WSO operators with nintendo controllers and play the ...Long TTI game, back in the rear of the battle.

The point im makeing. Manueverability, Speed, weapons and Electronics is what is going to kill sams.

Even if today it requires a light weight bantum fighter carrying a "Weasel in a can" and or playing rope a dope while an A10 comes in from the kitchen back door and Cooks the Turkey!



Edited by - MrMudd on Aug 19 2003 01:15 AM


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 01:55 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
EXCELLENT stuff Mudd, lemme ask you since your so knee deep in everything. Will the AARGM seeker get integrated to a new missle airframe or just stuck onto the HARM body, which I think is drag exxesive for the carrying jet.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

All I want is to deploy a B61....The enemy will learn quickly a sam equals the Foul penality in the big shooting match...

Come in at supersonic low level, pull up 60 degrees, let that baby come off the rack at 40K, Kick it over hard, dive to the deck with full burner jettisoning the gas bags, getting home via Mach 2 and watching the "big bang theory" on cnn while haveing a steak and a brew in the Clubhouse.... <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

I dont like SAMS dude...<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 05:04 
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Joined: 05 Oct 2002, 14:59
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If a SAM misses an airplane in the first wave, will it continue on to the next wave of airplanes and attack them?

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 09:14 
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Joined: 22 Jul 2003, 08:13
Posts: 454
Question

Which makes a Wild Weasel? Is it just the ASQ-213 HTS?


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 10:16 
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Farfrompukin
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>


We utilise differnt SEAD warfighting methods now that make the 2 aircrew force feedback system obsolete. Whats the Backseater going to do? Give the enemy the finger while hes trying to get a dinasaur slow inefficient system to sh00t the ducks while the pilot is rowing the boat finding a safe spot in the sky.







Edited by - MrMudd on Aug 18 2003 11:41 PM
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

ROFLMAO!
Anyway, thanks MrMudd for your great way of explaining the wildweasel-stuff.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

"I feel the need... the need for speed!"

-Homer, The Simpsons (NOT!!!)

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 11:01 
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MR MUDD
I have been misinformmed in the past and reeducated now. thanks
if you dont learn something new the day is just a waist.

Also you didnt need to come out of the gates with a additude calling name just tell me i was misinformed Im always willing to learn something new as are others

get muddy


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 16:02 
Wow, that went well....

LOL, thanx for keeping it almost civil. ;)

"Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead."


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2003, 16:17 
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There definetely has been improvement since you took over as a Mod, Snipe.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI


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