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I have read articles for two years about the aggresive, sometimes borderline, behavior of the 82nd, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. In Afghanistan, they raided any place they felt like indiscriminately. And in Iraq, they killed 20 peaceful protestors and shot 8 Iraqi policeman in a friendly fire incident. They also caught red handed beating up a non-hostile truck driver. They have been and are under investigation by the U.S. Army and there are signs they have been less than honest in taking responsibility for their actions.

Now don't get me wrong. Everyone has the right to and must defend themselves and we must take the fight to the enemy. And regardless of what these guys did or didn't do, they are of course extremely brave guys. And I'm sure many of you find have no problem with them.

But lets look at the fruits of their tactics: Fallujah is not pacified, it is as violent as any place. Yes, it was a violent place when the 3rd ID and 3rd ACR were in charge before the 82nd arrived (The 82nd btw called the 3rd ACR/ID soft anonymously, saying they just patrolled from armored vehicles, were shot at it, and didn't take the fight to the enemy). However, a) The 82nd's tactics have not reduced the violence, it has intensified it and embboldened attackers if anything.


Edited by - ViperTTB on Nov 06 2003 8:04 PM

I have mixed feelings on the use of tactics, but i will say this- how a unit behaves starts at the top.

These things are only going on because they are allowed(or encouraged) to go on.



<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

[quote]
I have mixed feelings on the use of tactics, but i will say this- how a unit behaves starts at the top.

These things are only going on because they are allowed(or encouraged) to go on.


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Heh, heh. Ain't that the truth. Now add in the troops know they are going back to combat and it's their ass on the line again. I know one door gunner on MH-60s, he has been in combat since October 01. Just got showdown in Iraq, can't find a damn article on it and it took a month to replace their bird. His minigun tends to jam so he carries a SAW as a backup. Smart kid.

The latest Blackhawk shootdown is now sourced to a SAM. Thousands of MANPADs in Iraq.

Jack

MH-60 is SpecOps I believe. Maybe the fact that it was SpecOps has something to do with it?

Edited by - ViperTTB on Nov 09 2003 7:28 PM

The MH-60 is the Pavelow, but the USN also operates the totally different MH-60R/S multirole helos.

I think in this case it was one of the Navy birds.

<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

MH-53 is Pave Low, MH-60 WAS Pave Hawk, but now there are many variants of MH-60 dont think Pave Hawk applies to any other than the AF variants. PAVE=Position And Velocity Extraction.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Edited by - boomer on Nov 10 2003 12:24 AM

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Yeah, Pave Hawk....der...my fault.
The USA and USAF i think are the only two operators of the Pave Hawk.


<img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

[quote]
MH-60 is SpecOps I believe. Maybe the fact that it was SpecOps has something to do with it?

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It's the Force variant and he mainly works with SpecOps. Really a funny story too. The kid is an intell type. Pre 911, out in the Pacific somewhere, they were asking for volunteers for door gunner. Kid sees fun, more bucks, and no biggie. He was qualed in the sucker right around 911 and whammo. One of the first into Afghan in October.

His Dad is a retired Navy type. He figured the Force would be a pretty safe gig for the kid. Dad ain't real happy now. When he told me last month kid was shotdown, he was kinda of smiling so I knew the kid was OK. Really banged up and they hit really hard. Moi is guessing they either lost tail rotor authority or had a couple of shot up engines.

Jack