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Death of the M-16? http://warthogterritory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3959	Page 1 of 3

Author:	mattlott [ 22 Nov 2003, 17:56 ]
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M-16 Rifle May Be on Way Out of U.S. Army Sat Nov 22, 3:55 PM ET By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer BAGHDAD, Iraq - After nearly 40 years of battlefield service around the globe, the M-16 may be on its way out as the standard Army assault rifle because of flaws highlighted during the invasion and occupation of Iraq (news - web sites). AP Photo Related Links • M-16 Overview (fas.org) U.S. officers in Iraq say the M-16A2 — the latest incarnation of the 5.56 mm firearm — is quietly being phased out of front-line service because it has proven too bulky for use inside the Humvees and armored vehicles that have emerged as the principal mode of conducting patrols since the end of major fighting on May 1. The M-16, at nearly 40 inches, is widely considered too long to aim quickly within the confines of a vehicle during a firefights, when reaction time is a matter of life and death. "It's a little too big for getting in and out of vehicles," said Brig. Gen. Martin Dempsey, commander of the 1st Armored Division, which controls Baghdad. "I can tell you that as a result of this experience, the Army will look very carefully at how it performed." Instead of the M-16, which also is prone to jamming in Iraq's dusty environment, M-4 carbines are now widely issued to American troops. The M-4 is essentially a shortened M-16A2, with a clipped barrel, partially retractable stock and a trigger mechanism modified to fire full-auto instead of three-shots bursts. It was first introduced as a personal defense weapon for clerks, drivers and other non-combat troops. "Then it was adopted by the Special Forces and Rangers, mainly because of its shorter length," said Col. Kurt Fuller, a battalion commander in Iraq and an authority on firearms. Fuller said studies showed that most of the combat in Iraq has been in urban environments and that 95 percent of all engagements have occurred at ranges shorter than 100 yards, where the M-4, at just over 30 inches long, works best. Still, experience has shown the carbines also have deficiencies. The cut-down barrel results in lower bullet velocities, decreasing its range. It also tends to rapidly overheat and the firing system, which works under greater pressures created by the gases of detonating ammunition, puts more stress on moving parts, hurting its reliability. Consequently, the M-4 is an unlikely candidate for the rearming of the U.S. Army. It is now viewed as an interim solution until the introduction of a more advanced design known as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon, or OICW. There is no date set for the entry into service of the OICW, but officers in Iraq say they expect its arrival sooner than previously expected because of the problems with the M-16 and the M-4. "Iraq is the final nail in the coffin for the M-16," said a commander who asked not to be identified. The current version of the M-16 is a far cry from the original, which troops during the Vietnam War criticized as fragile, lacking power and range, and only moderately accurate. At the time, a leading U.S. weapons expert even recommended that American soldiers discard their M-16s and arm themselves with the Kalashnikov AK-47 rifle used by their Vietcong enemy. Although the M16A1 — introduced in the early 1980s — has been heavily modernized, experts say it still isn't as reliable as the AK-47 or its younger cousin, the AK-74. Both are said to have better "knockdown" power and can take more of a beating on the battlefield.

Author:	boomer [ 22 Nov 2003, 18:19 ]
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gimme the Styr(spellin, it's been a while) AUG "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Author:	Lunatock [ 23 Nov 2003, 09:05 ]
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2DREZQ has the right idea. If his M-16 fails. He'd just reach into the mud puddle near his cover, and pull out his AK47. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> W.A.B. Moderator. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ "No wonder my Brother was a Marine Grunt, and not in any Spec Ops. The concept of a timetable is too advanced for him."

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 23 Nov 2003, 12:03 ]
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"Instead of the M-16, which also is prone to jamming in Iraq's dusty environment, M-4 carbines are now widely issued to American troops." They're the same damned weapon. "gimme the Styr(spellin, it's been a while) AUG" Steyr. If some jackass in a US armory tried to issue me an AK-47 i'd smack the taste out his mouth and tell him to give me... An M-16A2. PS- I loved all the errors in the article. <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0> Edited by - m21 sniper on Nov 23 2003 11:04 AM

Author:	fenderstrat72 [ 23 Nov 2003, 17:28 ]
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Snipe, I love that line. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If some jackass in a US armory tried to issue me an AK-47 i'd smack the taste out his mouth and tell him to give me... An M-16A2. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> Fender Hands clear. All switches off, safe or normal. Gun hot or cold? No limit, you bet.

Author:	Stinger [ 24 Nov 2003, 06:26 ]
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the accuracy of the AK-47 is questionable when compared to an M-16. Also givin proper maintanance (for instance not using OIL in a sandy environement) the M-16 is a very reliable weapon. Overkill??? I'd kill a fly with a howitzer if I had one.

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 24 Nov 2003, 10:00 ]
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"whats wrong with the AK-47 i'd use one but what about using the P90? it could be used and is better than the M16A2." The FN P-90 is a weapon that fills a need that does not exist. Nothing wrong with using an AK so long as hitting a medium range target is not a priority. PS- Thanx Fender <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

Author:	TheBigThug [ 24 Nov 2003, 10:31 ]
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I am a fan of the M16A2 until the wind blows. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> I am a fan of the 5.56 bullet until i get a madman in a car chargeing at me. 5.56 wont penetrate media, like doors, windows etc. I prefer my 7.62 Ar10 with the matching A2 site cam. Not only is it known distance adjustable and have correct windage. If that 7.62 hits you, you are worm bait <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> If you want to try and run through a checkpoint im manning. your toast too cause that bullet will go through doors, windows etc. The Ak47's are designed for one purpose like the SKS. Area supression. it is not an accurate engagement weapon. The problem id always have with them, is barrel heat, shifting POI, and secondly the sites. they totally blow! this is how you adjust an Ak47 in combat. 1. Shoot at target, notice bullet impact. 2. reach to side and pick up a rock. 3. Wail the shit out of rear site. 4. Shoot at target that is now 300meters Closer. Notice impact. 5. Wail at site some more. 6. Shot at target that is now at 300 meters. Notice impact. 7. wail at site some more, may need new rock as you busted the first one up. 8. Jump up from behind the concrete wall with a 30 round clip and spray like a mofo. 8. If Target is still charging screaming Kill Kill kill hoorah hoorah. be a man. Put barrel to chin and scream "ALLAH Akbar"! Pull trigger. "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see their near and dear bathed in tears, to ride their horses and sleep on the white bellies of their wives and daughters." -Genghis Khan Edited by - thebigthug on Nov 24 2003 09:36 AM

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 24 Nov 2003, 12:40 ]
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LOL I always figured the M-203 was the weapon of choice for would-be checkpoint runners. "Holy shit Sarge, you see that? The engine landed in that pond over there!" <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0> Edited by - m21 sniper on Nov 24 2003 11:40 AM

Author:	TheBigThug [ 24 Nov 2003, 12:52 ]
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That as well as a couple M2 Brownings 50 cal, and a Couple Mark 19's with interlocking field of fires. "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see their near and dear bathed in tears, to ride their horses and sleep on the white bellies of their wives and daughters." -Genghis Khan

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 24 Nov 2003, 13:03 ]
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Mk19 is Niiiiiiiiiiiice. <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

Author:	30mike-mike [ 25 Nov 2003, 07:27 ]
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Saw a couple of those (M-19) in Afghanistan. Lethal looking buggers. Hajji, you can run, but why die tired?

Author:	44hollowpoint [ 25 Nov 2003, 08:18 ]
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Snipe, Question for somebody in the know… I watched a program where they compared the M16 and AK47. Accuracy… M16 won (and by a country mile, at 300yrds the AK couldn’t hit a std running man target..!) Control whilst rapid fire… M16 won Penetration… AK won Reliability and battlefield ease of use… AK won And last of all the ability to use the weapon as a club… AK won. The program claimed the M16 stock is glassfibre and would shatter if you tried twating somebody in the head with it. Any thoughts on that? Choice of weapon for manning a check point, H&K CAWS with a mix of titanium sabot slugs and 00 buck in the mag… Mmmmhhh… "A .44 magnum beats 4 Aces everytime..."

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 25 Nov 2003, 10:00 ]
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CAWS was a neat program until it got axed. Too bad really. I dobut an M-16A2 stock would have a problem with smashing your opponents skull. The A2 is much more sturdily built than the A1 was. Never heard of anyone having that problem in Vietnam where HTH happened fairly regularly, even with the older A1 models. If anything, i would think the wood stock of the AK was more fragile. If i could pick a centerfire rifle for my enemy to use...i'd pick the AK over most. Only the SKS is more useless. <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0> Edited by - m21 sniper on Nov 25 2003 09:01 AM

Author:	boomer [ 25 Nov 2003, 10:53 ]
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all I can say is when my nephew was in the Army he said the M-16 buttstock would break if you looked at it wrong <shrugg> gimme an A2 or the AUG chambered for 7.62/.308 and I'll be happy. H&K stuff is pretty cool too. Should the Gov have chosen the AR-18 instead of the M-16? "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 25 Nov 2003, 11:42 ]
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AR-18? In a co-ed military? No, probably not. I really have no complaints about the M-16A2. Of course when i was in they were brand spanking new and EXTREMEMLY acccurate. Personally, i still wonder why the US switched from the M-14. What an excellent weapon that was. <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0> Edited by - m21 sniper on Nov 25 2003 10:43 AM

Author:	Hawg166 [ 25 Nov 2003, 14:20 ]
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I was going to ask about the M14 but seeing as I am not a fire arms efficianado I didnt want to sound dumb. In the article it said size was an issue in close quarters. We trained with the M14 in the Navy and I remember it being a pretty hefty weapon. Is there a smaller model of it; ie as the article said there is a smaller version of the M16 ? I am thankfull that I dont worry about carrrying rifles. Thats why crew chiefs are engine run qualled and our A10's have ground safety overide switches. Chocks out, gun pin out, start APU, start engines, nose wheel steering engaged, point nose of aircraft in general direction of bad guys, ground safety switch to overide, and fill bad guys full of party mix. Simple really. By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 25 Nov 2003, 15:00 ]
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That would give a new definition to grazing fire! LOL! A little high....but besides that, WOW! NOTE: Grazing fire is typicly knee-level, but shoulder level 30 mike-mike would still keep all but the bravest idiots pinned in place. There are a couple 'versions' of the M-14 that are smaller. One is the Mini-14(or AC-556 full auto), a direct descendent of the M-1 Garand(as is the M-14) that fires the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge. The later block Mini-14's are very sweet weapons. I've owned three of 'em over the years. A series 179, 181, and 195. Another variant is the Mini-30. Same gun but chambered for the 7.62x39. Good weapon, but the 7.62x39 is inherently accuracy challenged. The carbine version of the M-14 is a brand new weapon designated the M-25, and is a very slick rifle still chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO. That one is the new standard Sniper Spotter's weapon in the USN, USMC, and USA. And of course there is the M-21. Most USA units have retired them and replaced them with the M-24, but outfits like the SEALs, Rangers, and DELTA still cling to them. Apparently they hate to see a good thing go too. In my opinion the M-25 might be the best urban combat/mechanized infantry rifle of all time. Really a terrific weapon. <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0> Edited by - m21 sniper on Nov 25 2003 2:01 PM

Author:	Hawg166 [ 25 Nov 2003, 17:42 ]
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Conscientous objectors fear not..............pulling the trigger to the first detent will just take pictures of the bad guys. You can therefore do nothing and feel good about it. But for guys like you Sniper, well just pull it all the way (2 detents) and you can kill the bad guys and take pictures to watch on video later with beer and pretzels. THE A10 WARTHAWG...........A CAS PLANE FOR LIBERALS AND REPUBLICANS ALIKE ! By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 25 Nov 2003, 18:11 ]
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LOL! If you ever crew a plane for me(you won't, but play along), do me a favor and go ahead and remove the first detent....i won't need that. I'm a second detent kind of guy, LOL. <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

Author:	TheBigThug [ 25 Nov 2003, 19:18 ]
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Thats why crew chiefs are engine run qualled and our A10's have ground safety overide switches. Chocks out, gun pin out, start APU, start engines, nose wheel steering engaged, point nose of aircraft in general direction of bad guys, ground safety switch to overide, and fill bad guys full of party mix. Simple really.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> LOL that was the best scene of Michael Douglas's "jewel of the Nile". Taxiing a 16 and Spraying arabs with 20mm. The best quote of the movie "Damn..out of Quarters!!!" "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see their near and dear bathed in tears, to ride their horses and sleep on the white bellies of their wives and daughters." -Genghis Khan Edited by - thebigthug on Nov 25 2003 6:18 PM

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 25 Nov 2003, 19:37 ]
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LOL! <img src="http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sigs/snipersig.jpg " border=0>

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