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Boomer - No, the B1 absolutely CANNOT carry nukes. The B2 and the B52 are the only heavy bombers doing it. The strike eagle guys as well and probably the F117 too. Points about its payload are agreed on. It can carry a TON. In an environment like Afghanistan where there is effectively NO big surface to air threat a big plane coming in at medium altitudes is not going to be threatened. You are absolutely right about the stealth issue. Stealth is HUGE.

As for how impressive an aircraft the B1 is - you are right DB. It is VERY impressive flying over low, supersonic, with all 4 engines in full AB pumping out about 125,000 lbs of thrust total. That would scare the enemy alright. Except for one BIG thing. That sort of attack will NEVER happen. The low level penetration attacks are a cold war planning idea of the past. Not going to happen with today's threats.

So, while the B1 is very capable, it is also very limited. As for the F16 - lawn dart or not - it remains the world's best turning (sustained corner speed, sustained G) aircraft with an EXCELLENT combat record. It is a plane that is constantly being upgraded and distributed to allies around the world with great success. The B1s combat record is also very good but it has only been in 2 confrontations, one of them with no threats. The rest of the program continues to be a money drain. Their mission capable status is pretty good right now but that is mostly because they just plain got rid of 33% of the fleet and continue to get the same amount of money. Maybe they should have thought of that sooner.

if the B-1s cannot carry nukes, why do the Russkies have access to them? In DS the B-1s were held out speciffically because they were on Nuke alert status.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

"Boomer - No, the B1 absolutely CANNOT carry nukes."

Luke where did you get this tidbit of info? It's news to the world since the the B-1 makes use of the 180" launcher and the CSRL. It carried nukes before it carried conventional.
The CBM had a lot of problems in the begining and the thing couldn't carry convential munitions. If it can't carry nukes now there are a lot of 2W1x1's out there with a lot of misinformation in their CDC's.


Fender
In war there is no prize for runner-up. -- Omar N. Bradley

The B1 was originally built and allowed to fly nukes. The treaties have changed that. It is a conventional bomber. The B2, B52, F15E, F117 are the USAF nuke carriers. The russians have access to ensure that we do not re-make them nuke capable and start flying nuke training missions with them. It is called compliance inspections and we do them to their air force as well.

If you need more specific information to believe me other than my word and several of my friends who are current and former B1 pilots and WSOs then here you go:

"WEAPONS

The B-1B does not currently carry nuclear weapons. The aircraft has three internal weapon bays and six external hardpoints under the fuselage. The maximum internal weapons payload is 75,000lb and maximum external weapons payload is 59,000lb. The internal weapons bays are capable of carrying the AGM-86B Air Launch Cruise Missile (ALCM), the AGM-69 Short-Range Attack Missile and the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM). The external hardpoints can carry the AGM-86B ALCM.

AGM-86B is a strategic cruise missile, fitted with a conventional warhead with a yield of 200kt and a range up to 2,500km. The aircraft is certificated to carry the AGM-69 nuclear strategic stand-off missile, although it is not currently carried. The Boeing JDAM uses global positioning system (GPS) and inertial navigation guidance for delivery of the 1,000lb Mark 83, 1000lb BLU-110, 2,000lb MK-84 and 2,000lb BLU-109. The B-1B can carry 24 JDAM, with a range up to 15 miles and strike precision within 13m.

The bomb payload of the B-1B includes the Mark 82 general-purpose 500lb bomb. It can also carry up to 30 Textron Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW). SFW has ten anti-armour submunitions, each with four Skeet warheads. The B-1B can also carry the 500lb Mark 36 Mine and the 500lb Mark 62 Sea Mine.

CONVENTIONAL MISSION UPGRADE PROGRAM

With the end of the Cold War, the USAF instituted the B-1B Conventional Mission Upgrade program. This series of upgrades involves: Block C (completed 1997) - capability to drop cluster bombs; Block D (completed June 2001) includes deployment of JDAM, new defensive system, new navigation and communications systems including the fitting of GPS (global positioning) systems to enable the dropping of satellite-guided munitions such as JDAM, and an AN/ALE-50 towed decoy system scheduled for 2003; Block E (due to enter service in 2003) - capability to deploy JSOW (Joint Standoff Weapon), Wind Compensated Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) and JASSM (Joint Air to Surface Standoff Missile); and Block F – upgrade of electronic countermeasures. JASSM entered low rate initial production in January 2002 with full production in 2003.

As part of the Block E computer upgrade program, in May 2002 a B-1B successfully targeted three different weapon types (Mk-84 bomb, Mk-82 bomb and CBU-89 cluster munitions) against three separate targets."

That one is from - http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b-1b/

"Conventional Mission Upgrade Program

As the cold war began to thaw, the B-1B was transitioned out of its nuclear mission. The last B-1B stood its last nuclear alert in 1997. In June 1994 the B-1B began an Operational Readiness assessment that marked the beginning of the Conventional Munitions Upgrade program.

This program was a phased approach to convert the nuclear bomber to a conventional platform. It was broken into four distinct blocks that included hardware and software modifications to incrementally increase the B-1B’s conventional capability.

Block C was the first increment. In 1995, Boeing completed hardware and software enhancements to accommodate a range of conventional gravity weapons such as cluster bomb units. It certified high- altitude release of 84 Mk82 bombs and 30 Conventional Bomb Units from a new 10-carry bomb rack.

Block D incorporated GPS navigation, Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) anti-jam radios and the ALE-50 towed decoy countermeasure.

Block E incorporates new mission computers, Wind Compensated Munitions Dispensers (WCMD), the Joint Stand-off Weapon (JSOW), and the Joint Air to Surface Stand-off Missile (JASSM). Block E gives the B-1B the unique flexibility to employ three types of weapons simultaneously.

Block F adds a new radar warning receiver and the Integrated Defensive Electronic Countermeasures system suite with a fiber optic towed decoy. This capability allows the B-1B to fulfill its requirement to penetrate post 2010 threat environments"

That one is from - http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... binfo.html

I was wrong about timing and treaties though. Apparently we could have flown nukes in them we just decided after 1997 that we did not need to. I am not too sure what the Russians need to inspect (other than further Start II stuff) but I am told by my above mentioned friends that they look specifically to see that we do not use them for nukes.

But to set the record straight......the B1 does NOT, I repeat, does NOT carry nukes. It used to - actually not too long ago (I thought it was longer) but it does not any more.

Luke is correct.......The original B-1 design dates back to the mid 1960's. The Carter administration killed it, only to be revived by the Regan adminsitration as a low level penetration nuke bomber. The Trust and Verify Treaty stipulated that it no longer be classified as a strategic nuclear weapon, thus it is now a conventional bomber. No longer the super weapon it was designed as, just a variable geometry bomb hauler with a small radar cross section and a high procurement cost.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Another Bone to pick with the Bone. I have heard, from B-1 crews themselves, as well as seen, that they are a nightmare to fly. While I was at Nellis, they had 3 B-1s out of Elsworth (sp?) and they usually went through hell and high water to get just two off the ground. I was told that if they did get 3 off the ground, any betting man would put money on an IFE. Granted, they usually were able to fulfill their mission requirements, but they came back BROKE. I don't want to go into further detail, but they were a MX nightmare...which is never a good thing. Now, consider that we managed to fly 6 A-10s twice a day for Air Warrior, lost no sorties to MX, and had no -actual- IFEs, lets talk about service life. I am not sure what stats they look at as far as determining service life, but I am sure if mission capability ratings play a part, we should see the Buff in service much longer than the, and teh Hog should be around for quite a while to come as well.

--Raven

"Work Hard, Party Hard, Hardly Sleep"

nice info luke, clear and specific, Thanks. I saw SO many pics of the Lancer dropping B-83s that I couldent let it get by without a challenge. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Yep, i've read a bunch of times that the nuclear mission has been withdrawn from the Bone.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

The Carter addministration canned the bone to get funding to pay for the F-117 (at the time Blue Have) because the addministation bought the F-117 even befor they had finnish testing Blue Have. Then the canned the Bone to ge cash, but that made the Rockwell's workers upset in southern california and regan played that to get elected.

the B-1 and F-117 missions were the same to penitrat the sovets Coastal warning radar and SAMS, but the B-1 lit up like christmas tree! and never could hit the deck enough. But stealth was such a breack through that it would have be stupid not to cancel the B-1 for the F-117.

A Proud Ambulance Rider! EMS

uh...no. But I dont have time tonight to fix everything thats wrong with that post! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> but in short Carter killed the B-1 because it would be cheaper to develope the SCAD into a workable cruise missle.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Boomers right. F-117/Have Blue funding initially came from the DoE. It was easier to fund from that program outside the DoD because DoE funding is not as big of a political hot button.

Have Blue was a program started by DARPA shortly after the Isrealis got thier but kicked by the Soviet SA-6 SAM in 1973( we eventually got them the right jammers) but it was a clarion call to the DOD that this sort of thing COULD happen. The AF had already been contacted by Leo Windecker who had produced the "Windecker Eagle" basically an almost all composite Cessna. Windecker had proposed to the AF that an all composit plane could have RADAR foiling properties, but the AF more or less pooh poohed him UNTIL the '73 war! That's when Have Blue was started, which produced many protos for various things, the "Stealth Fighter" concept came out of the XST branch (Xperimental Stealth Tacticle) and was also known as "Project Harvey" apparently the first one flew in early 1977. And the technology matured into the F-117 a tacticle stealth aircraft, not a Soviet border penetrator.

The B-1A was a supersonic high alt bomber to replace the B-52 in SAC, it was to carry a number of Subsonic Armed Cruise Decoys (SCAD) in the rear bay. SCAD was a follow on to the SRAM defence suppresion missle and McDonnells Quail decoy carried by the B-52 but it also had a warhead (why not!). SCAD developement indicated that it's ability to terrain follow (SRAM could to, but not as well nor as far as SCAD, SRAM could even be fired AFTER the launch aircraft had passed the SAM site, it would turn around and go after the target, this was in the '60s folks !!) made it a formidible weapon in it's own right, so when the Carter administration saw an oppertunity to cut defence spending AGAIN they did just that. They cancelled B-1A and developed the Cruise missle to be carried by the B-52 and/or a 747 or various other transport type aircraft. With the 1980 election looming and Carter being called soft on defence (which he was and still is) "peanut boy" told the world that we were working on developing a bomber that was undetectable to radar (gee thanks). This was the first PUBLIC mention of what we now call stealth or low observables. When Ronaldus Maximus swept in, in the 1980 election ,he (or his staff , you be the judge) wanted the stealth bomber but it was clear that it was a LONG way off and that the B-52s had lost thier ability to penetrate Soviet airspace. So the B-1B was proposed, but now the B-1 had become a low level subsonic bomber( a series of tests with the old B-1A frames in the desert around Nellis had convinced the AF that this was a workable mission profile, even with the old A airframes the target RADAR operators frequently had NO idea where the B-1 was untill it popped over the ridge in front of them !!)it had RAM ( radar absorbant material) applied to it's leading edges, the variable geometry intakes that allowed supersonic flight were now fixxed in place and treated with RAM, diverter vanes were placed in the intake tunnels to mask the compressor fans from radar shooting down the intake tunnels, then flashing back out to the radar site. As an example the B-52 had a head on RCS (Radar Cross Section) of 100 sq. meters , the original B-1A had, through shaping alone reduced the RCS of a big bomber to 10 sq meters, the B-1B had now cut that to 1 sq. meter probobly smaller han an F-15! The B-1 has certainly had a checkered career, and if it cant meet a resonable readiness rate then it needs to go, but it's capabilities are staggering, and not matched by anything including the Blackjack ripoff. 600kts at 250ft above the ground for what ? 600 or more miles? YOU try to make a living shooting it down!! I'll just dig a hole over here and crawl in !

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

There is no doubt that the B-1B is a kick ass low altitude strategic bomber........But with the global situation changing how it is, and the emergence of lower risk stealth/jamming techniques first strike at our pre-emenence without the need to go low and fast. The Bone as capable as it was could still be brought down by a unlucky birdstrike, or lucky triple A round.........

We can now do the same with impunity to those risks. The Bone is obsolete in todays aerial bombardment doctrine with todays known threats.

Former President Carter was once a Naval Officer and not the "wet nurse" on defense people claimed him to be.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Jan 03 2003 6:28 PM

Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Jan 03 2003 6:32 PM