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or any one else who wants to weigh in.

Household 6 and I have finnaly got our finances in something like order and have come up with \"The Plan\". If \"The Plan\" doesn't get shot to hell, then in the next 3 to 6 months I'll be able to put back money for flight training, with an eye towards actually starting around the first of next year.

Now I've looked into this some however I wanted to get some other opinions on the best way to move into flying as a career field. \"The Plan\" calls for getting my private liscence first and then moving my way through the various ratings, including CFI and CFII. What I'm not overly sure of right now is whether to go fixed wing (probable) or rotary wing (possible). I don't fully understand what the CFI covers either(example if I have my CFI and I get a multi engine rating can I instantly teach multi engine or do I have to get re-rated for CFI?). Basicly that part of \"The Plan\" is just a skeleton right now and I'm looking for a little guidance.

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

First, I would focus my training on fixed wing for no other reason than cost. Remember, getting your private license involves more than just learning to fly an aircraft; there's navigation, weight and balance, ATC procedures, all the stuff you need to learn to become a good pilot. Which would you rather do, spend $120/hour to learn basic navigation or $450/hour to learn the same thing? Rhetorical question I guess.

Ultimately, where do you want to end up? Airlines? Bush pilot? Local airport pilot for hire? That's the question you need to answer to yourself. Once you've decided where you want to go that should make your decisions easier. If it's the airlines, concentrate on building time and ratings. Don't know the status of your education but most airlines are only looking at pilots with degrees so if you don't have a bachelor's, that's something else you need to put on your \"to do\" list.

Once you become a CFI, you only need endorsements to teach other than primary students..which probably isn't what you want to do anyway..trust me, teaching primary students gets old fast.

Don't know if any of this helped, just giving you food for thought and others might have a totally different idea of how to approach this.

OC

Old Chief posted some good Gouge.

I have been fortunate to have a flying career in the AF . However it does not mean that you have to be a previous Mil aviator to gain a career in aviation. In the end we all have to cut our teeth, pay the money and earn the time under the FAA guidlines.

Your entry level as an FAA Licensed Aviator is a Private Pilot. The cheapest route is as Old Chief Refered to as \"Fixed Wing\" the entry level to this is \"Single Engine Land\"

You will begin for about $3500.

These are the following costs. the Tach Time (hobs) of the aircraft are typically around $45 Hr and another 50 for the instructor., Books and materials will be around 100.00 and additional items such as a Headset, that can range from 75.00 to over a 1000.

Upon Completion of your Ground school and Flight Portion, You will need to take FAA Examination for both Flight and Tests. Add on top of this atleast a Class 3 Flight Physical ($80.00)

Upon Completion you will be rated as a Private Pilot with a Type Rating for the Training Aircraft. (cessna 150, Diamond katana Etc.) and VFR Certification.

Most Schools maintain both a Rental Fleet and a Training Fleet. All this depends on their insurance carrier. (seek out a school that will allow you to rent. )

The next level would be to work on your instrument rateing in an aircraft you are allready rated in, Most Schools maintain aircraft that also have the neccesary IFR Avionics. Trust me IFR is easier to grasp with a slower Single Engine Aircraft. Essentially you are confortable and this allows you more scan time to Fly the VOR1-Vor2, Loran, GPs etc. (however equiped) and ILS procedures.

(you dont want to do this in a helicopter, its a bitch reaching for avionics)

Typically you can do this for another 2500. This will also save you from having to buy another aircraft manual. (their typically 100 bucks)

Once you have completed this level, Work into a Multi Engine aircraft, Baron 58, Piper, Seneca etc. This will alow you to gain the necessary Multi engine Type Rateing and more proficiency in the IFR. Most Schools will Integrate both Commercial and multi engine together.

Upon Completion of the IFR, Commercial and multiengine. You should hopefully have around 150 Hours of total flight time. You should be fairly comfortable in the twin and single that the school offers.

Complete CFI

At this time CFI Instruction will afford you the opportunity to gain Employment with the flight school and teach (helping you gain free flight time) You will teach in a VFR enviroment

Complete CFII this will rate you as an Instrument instructor

Hopefly you will have aquired around 1500-2500 hours of flight time. This is when yo uwill be most marketable. for a career in aviation.


I would estimate around 8-10K to get to the CFII Level as a Fixed Wing Aviator.

Rotory Wing Comparison is Closer to 80K in costs. By sticking to Fixed wing you will alleviate 70K in training expense. the average helicopter is from 200-350 .00 per flight hour.

Most airlines and regional Carriers will foot the bill for your ATP certification and or discount the training costs. Most guys will certify in a Buisjet and climb the ranks from there.

This was the Course of action that \"Whiteside\" had taken and could better discuss this .


I was a rated multi engine, IFR pilot in college before I was commissioned. It was apart of my academic program. ( Look into these degrees, Most of them allow you to use 60K a year in Flight Training and creditation for a Bachelor Degree) Later i completed my CFI and CFII While a a TPS Instructor at Edwards (USAF Test Pilot School) I taught Civillians on the weekends at Mohave Flight Test Center.

I left the Af with 3800 Flight Hours, with 1000Hrs in Civillian Flying. In the airlines I aquired another 2300 in the 737-800, CitationX, Lear 35A and 777-300ER. the airlines Covered my ATP Certification

Today I have 90+ hours as a Type Rated Schweizer 300C, and Schweizer 333. My training costs are much cheaper due to the fact that I have gained Valuable FAA certification through the Civillian Route in Fixed Wing, Utilised the Flight Training schools to gain Valuable Time. My Mil Service Aviation helps in being marketable, although not all Things mil aviation are Transferable to FAA certification, there fore Most Airlines have to send mil Pilots through courses to get them rated before sending them through ATP. Depends on the airline, and How much the Mil Aviator has Cross tested for the FAA ratings before hand.

If you are military, most bases have a MWR flight training facility. This can save a large amount of cash. Plus it provides an enviroment that in my opinion may exceed what you will find in the off base market. The other advantage is that you will gain Invaluable ATC flying enviroment.

I cannot say this enough, Pick a Flight school that will expose you to ATC Controling enviroment, stay in the same aircraft, Through your IFR Rateing. this will help you focuse on the Course ware and not be overtasked with the Radio and the \"Flying\" as this will help you spend more time on the Avionics, Hood, and Night flying.

Good Luck, its a great Hobby and freedom.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

Many Thanks to both of you. I was leaning heavily towards fixed wing anyway, but I wanted a little back up that its was the proper way. I'm going to save both of your posts and try follow your recomendations as much as possible.

O.C. I'd figured on doing the CFI route to gain hours then try to get on with a regional airline. A couple of the schools around here have some sort of deal worked out with a college so I suppose thats the direction I'll go in.

I hope to have half the cost of training in the bank when I start any particular rating, so that I can overcome any \"cashflow hicups\". My understanding being that getting training interupted is very bad.

As far as ATC the airport I plan on training at just put in a tower 4 or 5 months ago, I'm thinking the traffic will be relativly lite (less stress on me learning) while still being able to gain that experience I could be completly wrong on that score.

On the rotar-wing stuff, there was a school over in Dallas advertising to get all your ratings plus the kitchen sink, in helo's for $55K or so... it really sounded to good to be true. Based on what Bigthug said its probly got a lot of exceptions and BS, but I haven't looked into it to much.

at any rate it will be a couple of months before I can really begin, but once I start I'll keep you guys informed whats up(should be good humor for you ).

The irony of my forum ID and wanting to learn to fly aircraft isn't lost on me either.

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

First thing as i had described on the \"Education Route\" through a university, is that you can get a student loan easier than a signature loan for the flight training. It is a win win situation. you do not begin to make payments until you graduate, which will allow you to focus on School-Flying, and then earning money later as an instructor. By the time you have a Professional Aviation degree, it will add more to your marketing ability. Plus you will have a Wage that will support your Student loan payment.

The second thing like you said about the 55K Cost of helicopters, the problem is that most of these schools use the Robinson R44, (peice of Shit)
secondly nobody certifies under the minimum hours, You can expect a Great deal of extra flight time before you will be rated, Expect 60+ hours in rotorwing. That is 5 Hours x 200Hr + 5 x 50. That is easily 1250 of 5 hours slippage. If you have a weather day and have to call the flight short, it is more out of time expense because of the time off you needed for class, less time to apply the lesson, which causes more chances of redoing a lesson, or performing a lesson test.

The best thing to do is schedule a full time flight school. This will protect your costs, and keep you focused.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

What about high performance(which I've taken to meaning turbo-prop), Jet ratings and High altitude? are these things I'd need before applying at a regional?

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

Most airlines only require "Multiengine 1500Hrs Pilot in Command"

Not every Flight instruction school has access to a High Altitude lab, or hypobaric Chamber. Typically students in the Embry Riddle Courses wil lschedule a Trip out of state to One in Arizona. It all depends.

Will a turbo Prop Type Rateing help? Such as a King Air? absolutely, more than likely you will get this experiance as Most Regional Airlines operate these to support their markets, and airfields . Most entry level pilots in a Regional airline will recieve this training from them.

During hte course of your training and CFI instructor experiance, you will come accross associations of former students, Companies operating through your Airport that will provide a foot in the door.

When I was an Embry Riddle Instructor, we had many guest Employers that would spend a week with our students as part of their recruiting drive, often times they would provide a type rateing course during their visit.

It all depends on your networking ability.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

And beyond that simple "Mutliengine" designation the A/C itself doesn't matter a whole lot?

Ok so I'm looking at a lot more training at the onset of getting hired by a regional. I was under the impression I would have to do a lot of this stuff on my own. I suppose I should slow down a bit and get the training rolling, so I can get the lay of the land, but I like to have some vague idea of what up ahead.

Admittedly I'm trying to ask all the stupid questions here, so any potential instructors I have don't think "oh hell another dumbass" right off the bat... gives me a 5 min head start before they start thinking I'm a dumbass.

Edit: Another stupid question, I've read on some sites a percieved shift towards regional airlines from the big carries. Is there anything to that that your aware of or is it a kind of "hopeful advertising" from the flight schools?

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

There's a fair amount of truth to that Stinger. It pretty much comes down to passenger load. The majors are abandoning marginal markets, downsizing equipment wherever they can and the regionals are picking up the routes. The regionals can do it cheaper because they pay their pilots poverty wages (don't plan on making much money for the first 6 months)and use smaller and more fuel efficient aircraft.

If you haven't noticed, the regional market is no longer the Beech 99 or Embraer 120, instead many regionals are using Embraer 140/145's or the Canadair Global. The really small markets are still using turboprops but they're getting rid of them as fast as they can because passengers don't like them..they're noisy, slow and cramped..of course, that's opposed to the jets, which are just cramped.

Unfortunately, in my present position I log a lot of airport time and it sucks the big one. Whoever said today's airports are the bus stations of the 21st century nailed it. I miss the days of 757's with a few empty seats and a little leg room. Instead, I get a Teeny Weeny Air Taxi (thanks Goose, I love that one) on steroids..dah well, perhaps it's time to try retirement again. <Not sure where that rant came from, just seemed like something that needed to be said>

OC

Ain't that the truth! And with some of the \"food\" items being brought on board, the clientel isn't much better, either.

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

Ok, it makes sense but I wanted some outside confirmation.

It looks to me like most of the regionals pay 15-20 an hour for 1st year 1st officers, with "garanteed 72 line hours" and that it improves markedly after that(all things considered). the Line hours is really only time in the air right? you don't get paid for sitting on your ass at the terminal.

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

The catch all is that it depends...

It depends who you work for and what services they provide., Some of the Regional (air Taxi's) do nothing more than Shuttle people from a large Field to smaller regional ones that 737's for example cant fly into. in the rockies, this is quite common, as the King Airs have the short field and climbout capability on Rough Strips.

Many of these Air Taxis, own and operate both Turbo Props and Buisjets.

You have to admit, being paid 15 Bucks an hour is not a bad place to be building First Officer or PIC Time. Like I said it requires some sacrifice on your part.

I would prefer the Shuttle work over the heavy's any day of the Week. I Did Japan Airlines for a Year Flying From Narita Japan as FBO, to san Francisco, Sidney, Paris. Being in the air over the pacific for 10-16 hours at a time while still waiting for Vectors to Finals. can really suck. previous to this I did Southwest Airlines in the 737 for 9 months. It was great i was home every 3 days. The hops were no more than 2 hours, with an average 6 hour flight day with the same Crew.

The cool thing about the Shuttle agencies, is that You get to go home everyday, Still maintain a family and a personal life. Living out of a suitcase was not my idea of a goodtime. I have long outgrown the Bachelor alcoholic Flying lifestyle.

On the issue of the Flight school attitudes. If you ever get the feeling that your needs or questions are a subject of ridicule, or a burden. Turn around and walk away. you dont need to pay a bunch of shitbirds.

The key thing about aviation, is that you are picking up on how to represent yourself as a professional aviator, Interpersonal skills, Confidence and customer concern. ti truly is a hospitality atmosphere.

If your flight school is full of lumber jack grease monkies. How much professionalism will you gain?

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

Once again I'm in the position of thanking you and OC for good info.

I'm sort of lucky in that I'm still fairly young (27). How concerned should I be about getting in 30 years for a retirment package, IE should I start to worry if I'm not working for a regional by the time I'm 30.

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

Dude im 42 next Week. Life aint over till it is Over.

Alpha Kilo Put 20 In the USAF, another 20 in the Airlines, and Now is Retired, and Working for a Simulator and AirCrew Training Company.

Hes on his 3rd career. If he still has what it takes. I'm sure there is no worries for the rest of us.

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

ok good, My old man was a union ironworker so I've been inundated with the \"30 years then you can retire\" mantra. Its hard to get past sometimes

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"

Ah jeez Stinger, this forum is full of people on their second and even third careers. Hell, I'd been working the Hawg for three years when you were born and I'm still going strong..maybe not as strong as when I was in my twenties but I'm being paid obscene amounts of money by a company that doesn't seem to care how old I am.

Not sure there was much of a point here except to say that age is no longer that much of an issue.

OC

Oh yeah 30MM, nothing like jumping on an airplane to head to a quick out and back meeting, sitting next to someone that not only seems to be adverse to normal hygiene, 10 minutes after takeoff unwraps some gawdawful smelling homemade creation that permeates the whole aircraft..and you end up at your meeting smelling like an unbathed sanitation worker.

OC