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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2006, 02:49 
Historian doubts record of black pilots

Mon Dec 11, 3:14 PM ET

MONTGOMERY, Ala. - It has been part of the lore of America's first black fighter pilots since the end of World War II: The Tuskegee Airmen never lost a bomber to enemy fire.

But now, more than 60 years later, a leader of the group says he has uncovered records proving the claim is not accurate.

Air Force records show that at least a few bombers escorted by the red-tailed fighters of the Tuskegee Airman were shot down by enemy planes, William F. Holton, historian of Tuskegee Airmen Inc., said in an interview Monday with The Associated Press. And the group's losses may have been much greater, he said.

Holton's research was first reported Sunday by the Montgomery Advertiser.

Some surviving members of the group were offended by the findings of Holton and Daniel Haulman of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, who came to the same conclusion.

Former Tuskegee Airman Carrol Woods of Montgomery called their claims "outrageous."

"I think they are trying to destroy our record. What's the point now?" Woods, 87, told the Advertiser.

Holton said his sole interest is in making sure the group's history is as accurate as possible.

The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis, said he will no longer claim in speeches that the group never lost a bomber under its escort.

"I'm going to drop (it) until we can get this thing clarified," Davis said. "We've got some homework to do, obviously."

The Tuskegee Airmen were the first group of black fighter pilots allowed into the U.S. Army Air Corps. They got their name from the Alabama town where they trained.

With nearly 1,000 pilots and as many as 19,000 support personnel ranging from mechanics to nurses, the group was credited with shooting down more than 100 enemy aircraft and — for years — with never losing an American bomber under escort.

Holton, who has been historian of the association for about a decade, said he began leafing through old mission reports after hearing a veteran complain that the Tuskegee Airmen really did lose some bombers.

Haulman said the group's combat mission reports clearly show that U.S. bombers were lost while being escorted by Tuskegee Airmen in Europe.

One mission report says that on July 26, 1944: "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open."

A second report, dated Aug. 31, 1944, praises group commander Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr. by saying he "so skillfully disposed his squadrons that in spite of the large number of enemy fighters, the bomber formation suffered only a few losses."

A third report says that on Sept. 12, 1944: "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open."

Holton, of Columbia, Md., suspects that claims about the all-black group never losing a plane resulted from something that happened in May 1945 around the end of the war.

In a letter commending Davis, Col. Buck Taylor said the group had the distinction of never losing a bomber, Holton said. A military public relations representative included the claim in Davis' official biography, he said, and Davis later put it in his autobiography.

Holton, in the AP interview, said it is unclear where Taylor got his information, "but that's sort of where the whole concept emanated from."

Holton said while the reports document a few bomber losses, far more planes may have been lost. The only way to determine the group's true record is to scour the post-mission reports of bomber groups that were escorted by the Airmen's P-51 fighters.

Alan Gropman, who teaches at the National Defense University in Washington, told the Advertiser that more research is needed, but added: "Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be minuscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers."

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2006, 21:08 
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Regardless they are still hero’s! <img src=newicons/smiley_salute.gif border=0 align=middle>


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2006, 00:44 
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Yeah I mean lets get the record straightened out but they were still top notch guys and deserved better than they got.
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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2006, 03:51 
Better than the P51D?

Not sure i know what ya mean booms.

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2006, 06:17 
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I think he means the discrimination, snipe.

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2006, 12:46 
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yup

"Fitz" is the tits!
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way I'm droppin Hamilton$

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2006, 18:08 
Ah.

The indian fellow that was at Iwo Jima suffered the same. One of the things that's covered in Flags of our Fathers.

Real shame.

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2006, 19:12 
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Yeah they deserved Corsairs at least, maybe even Hellcats. <img src=newicons/smiley_salute.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2006, 00:25 
Pffft, a Hellcat or Corsair is like a Mustang with a half a tank of gas. ;)

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2006, 09:12 
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Youve been eatin' to many lead paint chips pal !

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2006, 09:26 
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The Tuskegee flew most of their missions with P-51A's they didnt get the better planes until later on.

They did their training around here at Chanute AFB Il they even just had a reunion.

They were good,and the Germans found out the hard way

I have to go with Billy, The F6F and the F4U-2 out class the P-51.

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2006, 13:17 
I think ya mean P-51B's goose. The P-51A was never built in any numbers for the US IIRC, that was an allison powered machine, and they all went to the RAF, again IIRC. The P-51B was the first Packard/Merlin powered Mustang variant.

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2006, 17:41 
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Wasnt the A actually an A-37 that was supposed to be an attack bird for the Brits?

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 00:05 
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The Tuskegee airmen flew the P-40, P-39, P-47 (don't know type), and P-51s B, C, and D, with the P-51C being their signature aircraft. <i>May</i> have had A's or A-36s comming out of North Africa but haven't found confirmation.

The P-51 was the original Allison-engined version and sported four .50 machine guns (Sources I've found say the four 20mm cannon-armed varients are actually F-6A photo-recon conversions).

The A-36 Apache was the attack varient with six .50, four in the wing, two in cheek mounts along the lower cowl. It also had dive flaps.

The P-51A was the Allison-engined fighter varient with four .50 machine guns. 310 were built, 50 going to the RAF, the rest to USAAF service. (Snipe is mixing up and combining the hodgepodge of Mustang Mk I's and Ia's, that were essentially P-51-equivalents, where about 2/3rds went to the UK and the rest stayed in the US for modification for other missions, testing, and development. It's confusing, not his fault.)

P-51B and 'C are identical, just built in different plants (B = Inglewood, CA, C = Dallas, TX).



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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 00:18 
Thank ye for the who's and whats. :)

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 06:50 
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The A-36 version was the USAAF first version to see action in the invasion of Sicily and Italy.
The P-51A saw action in the CBI AOR with the 1st AIR COMMANDO's in Burma thru 1944.
Some of the P-51A's were made into -F-6B models for Recon and attack

The MK-I had 8 .50M2 Brownings, 6 in the wing and 2 mounted in the nose canted in to fire thru the prop, they were just below the exhuast pipes just about where the wing met the Fuselage .
The MKII was a designation given to the 50 (P-51A's) given to the Brit'S with 35 were converted to the F-6B role

P-51B &C's had 4 Browning machine guns the P-51D was the first to roll off the line with the 6 .50 cal config.

But as far as the engines go thats pretty much been covered by you guys.The Merlin showed-up in the P-51B and C's

The Malcom Hood (Allison engine) with the upper air intake was replaced with the lower intake with the Merlin engines and the newer power plants.

I just learned more about the P-51 than I knew, I guess I should actually "LOOK" at the books I have once in awhile


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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 08:10 
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<img src="http://www.richard-seaman.com/Wallpaper/Aircraft/Attack/A36Apache.jpg" border=0>
Doesnt look much different from a standard P-51. But it is the Apache.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 10:44 
Heh, i'd never even heard of the 8 .50 or the F-6 versions before.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 11:41 
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Goose, I know what you mean about looking at books. I'm always trying to recall stuff I KNOW I've read but can never quite get straight, or worse, can't remember where I saw it, so spend a bunch of time hunting.

The original NA-76 and Mk I were designed for four .50s and four .30s, not eight .50s. Two .30s in the nose, and two .30s on the outermost wing stations. I've also read that the four 20mm-armed Mustangs were also a British Mk Ia varient. The "F" designation just means photo-reconnaissance.

Eh, I'm tired of squawking like a parrot. Read lol:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51_Variants.html

http://www.icon.co.za/~pauljnr/history.htm

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2006, 15:55 
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Having Grown Up around Drunk Indians in the 4 Corners area, I have no Sympathy and for a lack of a better word Empathy, for any veteran that choses to adorn the lifestyle of being a drunk...and Homeless.

It is a lifestyle and nothing more. He was given a valuable tool as a U.S. Marine on how to survive and live honorably. He chose a differnt route.

The Keyword here is Survival, Some of us mentally deal with Combat in differnt ways.

..on the street as a vagabond and wasted out of their mind doesnt say a whole lot about ones character.

The best way to deal with adversity is to march on and turn the page and lead from the Front.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Ah.

The indian fellow that was at Iwo Jima suffered the same. One of the things that's covered in Flags of our Fathers.

Real shame.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/RecoverAgentWIDEsmall.jpg" border=0>
<font color=yellow><i><b>"US Snipers...providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b></i></font id=yellow>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2006, 11:29 
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Horrido,

I'm just going by the "History of American Military Aircraft".
They put down 8 .50 and showed a picture of it in Brit Markings and never mentioned .30 cal. but they did put down the 4 20mm's on some P-51's.
I pulled out my copy of "The History of the Royal Airforce" and they dont say a word on the P-51, they show and talk about P-40's and P-47's

Anyway we can see the P-51 had alot of up bringing

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2006, 16:23 
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I'm still trying to figure out what difference it makes if they are black, white, or otherwise.... a good soldier is a good soldier.

And digging up evidence against a claim like that this late, when most of the guys won't be around in another 10 yrs, does what good? Let the guys live and die with the pride they deserve by serving our country well.

If you HAVE to bring it up for the sake of accuracy, fine. But wait till they have all passed. It really serves no other purpose, and sounds like somebody was resenting them for some reason....

(quote)
"Alan Gropman, who teaches at the National Defense University in Washington, told the Advertiser that more research is needed, but added: "Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be minuscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers."

As if being black is the difference....

black, white, only lost a few or none at all, I still salute them...

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2006, 19:48 
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+1 <img src=newicons/smiley_salute.gif border=0 align=middle>



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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2006, 14:08 
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they built over 10,000 P-51's their is less than 100 in private hands, and this includes the piper and North American Versions manufactured after the war.

anyone remember the Navion a tandem side by side 2 seat Version, that saw service in the Korean war with the Army?

During ww2 we lost whole squadrons during a mission. Were talking a days sorties were as much as 120-250 Aircraft in a Bombing package lost in 5 hours of combat action.

If the Tuskagee airmen only say lost 10 Aircraft during the whole tour in theater to direct combat. There hero's in my book, they were a force multiplyer and part of the legacy of what a Deep Escort Fighter did and accomplished in the campaign. Many Bomber crews owe their life to These men and others that kept the ME-109's off their back over germany, when the previos 3 years of the war, the fighters could only escort them from England to Mid Holland and france.

These guys fought off waves of fighters over the Beach, Over Key countries and German unit lines, and into territory, only to do it again on the return...

then you look at the 60's Jet age and we wiped out aircraft types completely out of inventory in 3 years... only to design and buy new types.

Be amazed at the legacy Quality ww2 Pilots did and what Aviation Management has done for our 70's block fighters still serving 25 years after initial procurement. We owe all of our success's on their efforts, discoveries and valor to be where we are today..



"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see their near and dear bathed in tears, to ride their horses and sleep on the white bellies of their wives and daughters."
-Genghis Khan

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2006, 06:39 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>anyone remember the Navion a tandem side by side 2 seat Version <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

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