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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2003, 05:22 
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I thought it was a cheaper radio controlled proximity-fuse.
I don't know why a helicopter would get in that close to a tank. What are the tactics for engaging a helicopter? The prox. fuse would be great for troops.

Also, its the arm chair generals talking again that they think airpower can solve all. Will they ever learn?<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/ ... 7928.shtml
They're calling it "A-Day," A as in airstrikes so devastating they would leave Saddam's soldiers unable or unwilling to fight. The Pentagon will be implementing a new battle concept, called "Shock and Awe," which focuses on the psychological destruction of the enemy's WILL to fight rather than the physical destruction of his military forces. Instead of plowing through Iraqi ground troops, the battle plan targets the leadership straight away. The concept relies on a BLITZ of precision guided weapons. Harlan Ullman, one of the authors of this plan says, "…you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but in minutes.” Consider the mental state of a Baghdad general finding his city plunged into darkness, the water turned off and a majority of his division headquarters suddenly neutralized. The plan is to override his senses. "The sheer size of this has never been seen before…” a Pentagon official said



Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 26 2003 10:05 AM


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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2003, 11:33 
As i have stated to anyone else who has asked me about this plan(you are the third), the problem with it is that we don't have enough cruside missiles in inventory to implement it.

This guy calls for the use of 600-800 cruise missiles, which would use up almost the entire stock of such weapons.

We can't be doing that.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2003, 11:50 
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My question is do you think we can win this conflict with cruise missiles and air alone?
I most certainly think not.

Unless, that's what we want them to think<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2003, 21:10 
Maybe if we had 30,000 of the things ;)

No, we'll need the grunts and 'obsolete tanks, as always.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2003, 06:14 
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Joined: 06 Aug 2002, 11:53
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

A Copperhead 155mm laser guided artillery shell?

ANSWER: $50,000 bucks

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Didn't they end production on those a long time ago?

Ted

Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.
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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2003, 08:20 
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Sniper if we had 30,000 of them we wouldn't need fighter pilots.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

And after we launched 30,000 of them and they hit their mark we still would need to destroy the army after they come out of hiding.

Attrition is great but it isn't a cure for all.

Send in the troops and the armor abd really finish the job!!!


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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2003, 19:51 
Yes Ted, copperhead is long since out of production- that is what they cost when they were being made though.

60k a pop.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2003, 05:49 
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Hey Sniper, do you have figures for how much a JDAM or the various flavors of LGB cost?

Ted

Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/dark2.gif" border=0>


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2003, 13:51 
JDAM is really a kit, not a bomb.

IIRC it cost's about 38,000 bucks for a JDAM kit, which is then affixed to a Mk8X series iron bomb.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2003, 15:48 
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Speaking of JDAM
What is the defintion of blast radius compared to lethality radius?
They say that the blast radius of a 2000lb JDAM is 110' but the lethality radius is in excess of 750'

I asked because you have experience calling in fire.


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2003, 18:05 
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I would guess "blast radius" is an overpressure threshold, and "lethal radius" is taking the shrapnel into consideration. I've heard that a MK-84 can destroy a soft van from 200yds away.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2003, 21:39 
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Wonder if the initial fireball is taken to account?
Good Example Boomer,

In Enduring Freedom, at Mazar E Sharif, they where fighting in the prison compound and trying to quell the uproar. They called in a suppresion strike and the JDAM missed its intended coordinate.
One unlucky Northern Alliance position was in a T-55 50ft from where it detonated. It threw the 45 ton tank like a toy, capsizing it, and killing all that where inside.



Edited by - Tritonal on Jan 29 2003 11:48 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003, 20:14 
Boomer described it perfectly.

Blast radius is the figure you need to know as an FO when you are calling a strike on bunkers, fortifications, etc.

Lethal radius is the sphere in which unprotected personnel or soft skin vehicles are exected to be killed/wounded-damaged.

You can violate the lethal radius for danger close missions, but NEVER the blast(also called burst) radius unless you are looking for a posthumous Silver star or CMoH.

I explained this to you way back when, don't ya remember?

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Edited by - m21 Sniper on Feb 04 2003 7:15 PM

Edited by - m21 Sniper on Feb 04 2003 7:16 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003, 22:01 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I explained this to you way back when, don't ya remember?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I think I accidently skipped reading it 'cause I don't remember.

My next question is what about the initial fire ball of the detonation, is that the overall blast radius or do you have to factor in that variable plus the blast radius to get a safety distance when calling in fire as a FO?


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2003, 23:45 
The 'fireball'- and it is really just an almost instantaneous flash over(Unless there is a secondary)- is usually somewhat smaller than the blast radius, and is therefore generally not a factor in wounding- though it will obviously ignite flammable liquids and gases.

The blast radius could also be called the concussion radius, or overpressure radius. It is 'generally' 1/2-1/4 the size of the lethal radius(fragmentation radius), depending on the given munition type and especially the fuzing.

If you have a hard target and you want to dig it out you request fuzing to be set to HE-D(High Explosive Delay), and keep your FFE in a tight cluster centered on a precise 8 or 10 digit grid(10 digit for GPS).

This packs the ordnance together and the Delay(.01 sec) fuzing allows it to penetrate several feet of concrete before detonation. You generally need a direct hit or a very near miss to destroy bunkers, armored vehicles etc with anything up to 155mm.
At 8"(203mm) you start to get some serious shock damage and can collapse bunkers/toss APC's with reasonably close misses.
The 16" shell is a WHOLE different category. That(HE-D) creates a crater 45 feet across and 30 feet deep.
The shock and over pressure damage of a nine gun salvo is awe inspiring to behold- even in photo's.

Iowa's have cut the top 30-40 feet off of mountains in Korea and Vietnam, and actually literally severed several acres of Tiger Island off the coast of Vietnam during the war.

During the Normandy landings a British battlecruiser with 14" guns(i think it was a brit ship) shelled Nazi Panzergruppen attempting to reinforce the Atlantic wall and tossed 50 ton Tiger tanks on their back after near misses as far away as 50 feet.
Rommel commented that he could do nothing against the Allies heavy battleships- he could not reinforce, he could not shift his forces, and he could not withdraw in an orderly fashion.
LOL, little did he know they weren't even battleships.

For APERS duties against TIO(Troops In Open), you want to use VT-fuzing(Prox), and may wish to call for walking fire if the enemy troops are moving, or TOT(Time On Target- my favorite ;) if they are stationary. With GPS aids FO's can normally dispense with the adjusting round and go directly to the FFE. That is a huge improvement in the effective lethality of artillery fire.

For troops in trenches and fighting holes- or soft skin vehicles you want a mix of of VT and HE-Q(Quick timed- IOW contact, .001 sec).

I know you like airpower, but 85% of casualties in war are historicly caused by artillery.... figured i'd point that out ;)



Edited by - m21 Sniper on Feb 04 2003 10:58 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2003, 10:42 
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Joined: 05 Oct 2002, 14:22
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Location: Missouri
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Boomer described it perfectly. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

at leaste I got SOMETHING right this week ! <img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2003, 13:51 
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Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
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Was it routine for Sniper's to be FO's?
I 'm guesssing yes because a good majority of a snipers work is observattion.
Did you have to memorize a list of blast and frag radiuses fro different projectiles. You must of had to commit that to memory real good.


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