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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 15:15 
Subject: Second Tanks in Iraq
AT TUWAYHAH, Iraq - There were several dead dogs lying on the side of the road. Second Lieutenant Adam Markley looked ahead from his tank and thought that was odd. "It was like someone had used the dogs for target practice," he said. At Tuwayhah got stranger still as Charlie Company's tanks led the
flying column of the Marine Corps 2nd Tank Battalion into town. Mounds of earth were piled neatly along the highway. A bus, a truck, and other vehicles were stacked on the rooftops of roadside shops. They were part of a honeycomb of sniper nests stretching the length of At Tuwayhah. As the column hit the center of town, a trench filled with oil boiled into flame and black smoke. "Devil's Advocate," Lt. Markley's tank, passedthrough the smoke at about 12:20 p.m. "The fire pits were scary as s-t," said Lt. Markley. "I was the lead
tank, and I didn't know what was on the other side."

Hell was waiting. Half a dozen men dressed in black ninja outfits and black stocking masks stood up on either side of the highway with rocket-propelled grenade launchers on their shoulders. One of the grenades hit Lt. Markley's open turret hatch. The blast was deflected into the hatch of the tank's cannon loader. Cpl. Bernard Gooden, a 22-year-old from Mt. Vernon, New York, was killed instantly.

By now there was trouble on "Let's Roll", Capt. Houston's tank. "The fire extinguisher light came on," Lance Corporal Peixotto said. Tank Gunner Corporal Alfredo Ramirez hollered, "Keep on rolling." Seconds later, however, Corporal Peixotto saw the fire light come on, and the tank shut down. Gunfire had pierced the fuel bladder hanging on the left side of the turret.The Marines use a JP8 fuel that doesn't explode like gasoline. But when the tank turret swiveled to fire, fuel poured from the fuel bladder into the tank engine's air intake valve.
"It's like pouring gas on top of your engine," said Staff Sgt. Bryan Hillard, Charlie Company's master gunner. "It just floods it out." Capt. Houston, 28, comes from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. His
favorite story about his famed ancestor involves the time that Sam Houston ordered a subordinate to pull an arrow from his leg so he could stay in command. Now, Capt. Houston acted to stay in charge of his company.
"I've gotta go," he said. Capt. Houston jumped to another tank to keep the company going.

The driver of an M1A1 Abrams tank lays in a hatch beneath the 120mm cannon barrel, forward of the rest of the tank crew. When a fire starts on a disabled tank, his duty is to leave. Lance Cpl. Peixotto grabbed a 9mm semi-automatic and jumped out. Cpl. Ramirez and Cpl. Michael Ackerman, the tank loader, were firing
machine guns at the Iraqis and Islamic Jihad fighters swarming behind the mounds of dirt beside the wounded tank. Cpl. Ramirez, of Oceanside, California, was firing the "co-ax" machine gun mounted beside the tank's cannon. Cpl.Ackerman, from Riverside, California, was firing the 7.62mm machine gun mounted on the loader's turret hatch. When that gun jammed, he picked up an M16 rifle and a 9mm semi-automatic. Capt. Houston jumped back down from his new tank and ran to "Let's Roll". He picked up the telephone housed in the "grunt's box" on the rear of the tank that lets infantry talk with a tank crew. While on the phone, he
was shot.

Lance Cpl. Peixotto ran to Capt. Houston. "I pulled him against the tank, shootin' and stuff," Peixotto said. "Cpl. Ramirez and Cpl. Ackerman tried to extinguish the engine fire. They cut loose the fuel bladders. They gave Lance Cpl. Peixotto a compress bandage and some extra 9mm clips. When an ambulance arrived, Cpl. Peixotto was holding the bandage against Capt. Houston's face, firing his 9mm and talking into a phone held byanother Marine. Peixotto said he fired "about eight or nine clips" - as many as 135 bullets - during the fight. "Capt. Houston went down trying to put out the tank fire," Lance Cpl. Peixotto said. "There was a lot of screaming and shooting and yelling. It was one big firefight." The Islamic Jihad fighters put even more firepower onto the tank of First Lieutenant Charles D. Nicol, Jr., Charlie Company's executive officer. "He's got five or six antenna on his tank - it's like having a giant "shoot me here' sign," Lt. Markley said.When Lt. Nicol's tank slowed, the Islamic Jihad fighters detonated a car bomb next to it. The blast shook the tank, but the crew was unharmed. Several RPG shells also exploded harmlessly against the tank.

Back in "Devil's Advocate," driver Lance Cpl. Grant Hines of Marietta, Georgia, could not believe how many hooded fighters were firing RPGs. "It was like that game, you know, where the critter sticks his head up
from one hole and you try to whack it before it sticks up from another one," he said. "There were guys with RPGs on their shoulders everywhere." Lt. Markley came around and clamored out of his turret to retrieve his
maps. Cpl. Julio Cesare Martinez of San Diego, the gunner on "Devil's Advocate," helped restore the tank's communications. Lt. Markley had another tank in his platoon plot their location on the highway. When he realized where they were, he made an urgent radio call to Lt. Nicol. "We have to turn around! We missed our turn," Lt. Markley yelled. "We are only four clicks [kilometers] from Baghdad!" Lt. Nicol consulted with battalion command and ordered a halt. Then the battalion ran through one of the most complicated battle maneuvers a
tank column can face - doubling back on itself while under fire.

Without hydraulic pressure, "Devil's Advocate" gunner Cpl. Martinez was cranking the turret by hand and firing the "co-ax" machine gun with a manual trigger. Capt. Dave Bardorf of Middletown, Rhode Island, was in a Humvee leading an ambulance and the battalion surgeon, Navy Lt. Bruce Webb, up to Capt. Houston's tank. Capt. Bardorf looked over to Cpl. Peixotto. "It was incredible," Bardorf said. "He was slowing the blood flow with one hand, laying fire on the enemy with the other, and directing fire from a radio another Marine held for him."

Lt. Webb and the others managed to get Capt. Houston inside the ambulance. But now there was trouble in the front of the vehicle. Cpl. Luke Holden, of Albany, New York, the driver of the ambulance, took a bullet through the hand he was holding on the steering wheel. Navy Hospital Corpsman Thomas
Smith of Brooklyn, New York, took over the driving. With Cpl. Holden in the passenger seat, Corpsman Smith held a bandage on the wounded man's hand, drove the ambulance, and fired an M-16 out the window.
A platoon of Combat Engineers was following Charlie Company's tanks in the column. Sgt. Dwayne Rios, a 25-year-old from the suburbs of Gary, Indiana, was commanding a tracked infantry vehicle in the Engineers platoon. Sgt. Rios was firing from his turret when a bullet struck the butt of his M-16 rifle.
"He was trying to clear the jam in his rifle when he was hit behind the ear by a sniper," said Combat Engineers First Lieutenant Jonathan Derosier. Sgt. Rios' vehicle followed the ambulance with a Medical Corpsman
trying to save him. But Sgt. Rios died before the med-evac helicopters arrived.

A Marine CH-46 helicopter landed at the missed intersection to evacuate the wounded. While waiting there, Cpl. Holden was shot in the other hand, and Corpsman Smith then helped treat that wound. "Corpsman Smith did an outstanding job, truly above and beyond," said Lt. Webb. The medical evacuation was under fire most of the time. A Marine Cobra helicopter flew down to assist. "It came down and just smoked the whole building," said Capt. Bardorf. Lance Cpl. Peixotto, Cpl. Ramirez and Cpl. Ackerman stayed with their burning tank, firing every gun they had. Col. Joe Dumford, commander of the Fifth Regiment, was in the column near Capt. Houston's tank. He ordered the crew to abandon "Let's Roll," and they ran to one of the Humvees in the Colonel's regimental command train.

Fire and explosions consumed the tank. By the next day, the tank was sitting on its belly in the street. All the wheels and tracks had melted away. "I've been shot at before, but nothing like that," Cpl. Ackerman said. "It was probably one of the scariest moments in my life when that tank stopped." Said Cpl. Peixotto: "It was a near-death experience, I guess."

Wow.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.

Edited by - m21 sniper on Apr 29 2003 2:16 PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 15:54 
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How did gunfire manage to pierce the fuel bladder?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 16:01 
Fuel bladders are just thick rubber with foam sealant.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 17:47 
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So this sits outside the armor? And piercing it starts a fire? That sounds like an all round bad thing..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 18:21 
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[quote]
Subject: Second Tanks in Iraq
"There was a lot of screaming and shooting and yelling. It was one big firefight." The Islamic Jihad fighters put even more firepower onto the tank ---------

If you recall I posted the Baghdad 500 turned into an ambush alley on the way up.

Snipe and I both agree we went in light. To hang fuel bladders around a tank is just asking for big trouble. Abrams are just too big of fuel suckers.

It was a furball till Baghdad.

Jack


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 21:05 
Hanging fuel bladders on the outstide of tanks is what you do when you didn't send enough tanker trucks into the theater because "We can do this with 85,000 men".

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 21:18 
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Is this "Let`s Roll"? Not a pretty picture if it is....


<img src="http://www.g2mil.com/_derived/May2003.htm_txt_Dead_M-1.gif" border=0>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2003, 21:43 
The one and only.

G2mil, you like that site?

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 08:23 
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Hmm, Islamic Jihad fighters. This predates the s--t Hamas has been stirring up because of Palestines new Government and another attempt at a Palestinian state. Forget Syria. These guys appear to even want our undivided attention.

...Wonder how long it'll be before some books or movies about OIF will be out?

"Twenty five pushups. You too Tom. So what if you didn't mess up, we're one big happy family."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 11:14 
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[quote]
The one and only.

G2mil, you like that site?

----------

That and Hack's site, www.sftt.org Nice thing about Meyer's site he offers some solutions to various weapons systems.

Jack


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 12:43 
I write for him on occasion. ;)

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 16:11 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The one and only.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That must have been one hell of a fight!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>G2mil, you like that site?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I like the site Meyer does offers solutions to a lot of the current weapons systems problems some make so much sense that no one seams to want to listen to him! The article http://www.g2mil.com/Boeing.htm about buying 747s would have saved my job and about 15,000 other jobs! Why is it if it makes sense then we should not do it?
Now of late Meyer seem to be upset about a number of things and I have been trying to understand what is going on I would not mind some of the opinions of this group to help me out here. His editorial this month was very strong I am still trying to take it all in.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I write for him on occasion. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Cool!



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That and Hack's site, www.sftt.org Nice thing about Meyer's site he offers some solutions to various weapons systems.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I need to check out his site.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 16:24 
Keep one thing in mind about Carlton....he see's the bad in everything, but is motivated by the desire to see what he percieves as best for our forces, a worthy cause no doubt.

He's just a little paranoid, is all. ;)

E-mail him, he answers all his mail.



"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 16:59 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hanging fuel bladders on the outstide of tanks is what you do when you didn't send enough tanker trucks into the theater because "We can do this with 85,000 men".

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Ah, it all makes annoying sense now. Do politicians ever do anything besides get people killed?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2003, 22:59 
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Then again if we had a diesel Abrams we would avoid bladders altogether.
The thing with Carlton Meyers is that he has good ideas and really <i>bad</i> ones.

The diesel engine Abrams, I like.
The "meteor bomb"?-better rethink that.







Edited by - Tritonal on May 01 2003 10:47 AM


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PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 11:36 
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Carlton Meyer seems like a disgruntled govt. employee, and I do not enjoy reading his editorials. On the subjects I am knowledgeable, he is frequently in error. He does have some gumption though. The pre GW-II editorial he wrote in Feb. is still on his site http://www.g2mil.com/Feb2003.htm . Since the bad stuff he predicted seems to have been avoided, Tommy Franks must be a relative genius.

Mc/I + P/A

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 11:48 
Yeah, he's paranoid.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 11:50 
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Hey snipe, like the idea of the diesel Abrams?
Wonder how quiet it is?


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PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 12:31 
I think that idea sucks, lol. ;)

In all honesty, i don't often agree with Carlton's ideas, with a few notable exceptions.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 12:50 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I think that idea sucks, lol. ;)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
(Heh, heh)<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Why?
<ul><li>Saves gas
</li><li>same power rating
</li><li> less maintance</li>
<li>low heat sig. </li></ul>

Although, the SEP model has tackled some of those problems.

Whatever the next Abrams model has, I hope it has the 140mm gun.





Edited by - Tritonal on May 01 2003 3:22 PM


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PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 15:08 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I think that idea sucks, lol. ;)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Heh, heh
Why?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
<ul><li>Saves gas
</li><li>same power rating
</li><li> less maintance</li>
<li>low heat sig. </li></ul>

Although, the SEP model has tackled some of those problems.

Whatever the next Abrams model has, I hope it has the 140mm gun.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

You could hear a freakin' M-60 from two ridgelines over. You don't hear the M-1 until it's too late. Tactical surprise is huge.



ATTACK!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 15:39 
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Read my previous post.

What I would like to see is a hybrid gas/electric-it'll take some time before the research shows results to power a 70 ton bohemuth.
I've read that there's been research done to a Humvee(according to G2)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 19:56 
There is nothing wrong with the turbine. They are actually very reliable, they are VERY quiet, and they are also very small in comparison to a diesel of equiv power, meaning more room for fuel, and greater crew access for repair. The fuel economy issue has been fully addresed with the UUAPU.

Air2Mud is absolutely right, M-60's are very noisy beasts, the M-1 is not. They can and will sneak right up on your position before you hear them.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 20:22 
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I don't know much on the subject--I'm open to different opinions.

I'm gonna speculate:
If they decide to incorporate a 140mm gun in the new model I wonder what its combat weight will be...90tons !?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 01 May 2003, 20:39 
Leopard II A8(i think) has a 140mm gun, and is barely 60 tons.

"If they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker, Battle of Lexington.


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