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60 MINS IS GOING TO SHOW NEW DOCUMENTS ON BUSH'S ANG TIME, I AINT PICKING SIDES BUT SHOULD MAKE A GOOD TOPIC LATER.

JUST TRYING TO KEEP IT FAIR AND ALMOST BALANCED<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bow.gif border=0 align=middle>

MONEY TALKS,B.S. JUST PILES UP.

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

I thought it was established in 1992 that resistance to the draft during the Vietnam era was a positive item on a presidential candidates resume. I think it might have been Terry McAuliffe, Ted Kennedy or James Carville that made the most articulate arguments. Are we re-thinking that? OK, I'll have an open mind.

THE CRAPTOR ENGINEERING TEAM <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"The F-22...It's the poo"

Edited by - a10stress on Sep 09 2004 11:56 AM

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????

SO when is 60 minutes gonna do a show on Kerry's fake combat V, self-inflicted purple heart, claims of personally engaging in war crimes, failure to report war crimes he claims to have witnessed, and explain why he left the service in 72 but wasn't discharged until 78?


Does this strike anyone else as BLATANT leftist bias?

"Molon labe".
Leonidas, King of Sparta,
Thermopylae, 480 B.C.

Yeah I think they both are really pathetic in this area. I think that the best person to answer the question would actually be George Sr. A man that could tell the press that war sucked, he used his influence to keep his sone from going through what he did, and that Kerry would have been a fool to want to stay in the Nam. He is the only one that I know of, maybe there are others, that fought in a 'glorious war', had tremendous power to educate and protect his son and there fore see it from both sides. I knknow that sounds really screwey but I think he could articulate it well. And I really think it needs to be said even thought its a truly sad sad thing to have to be thought of much less put to rest.

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

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YGBSM !

IT GOES TO SHOW EVERYONE "HE SAID ,THEY SAID,I SAID,YOU SAID ETC.....
THEY LEAN TO THE LEFT BECAUSE ITS CBS,THEN FOX BRINGS UP THE PRUPLE HEARTS ETC... THEIR RIGHT BECAUSE THEY LEAN RIGHT.

I JUST WANT BOTH TO JUST COME CLEAN, TELL THE TRUTH, KERRY'S IS A STICKY ONE BECAUSE NOBODY CAN AGREE,BUT GW'S LIKE BILLY SAID JUST HAVE THE FATHER BUSH "I USED MY PULL" PERIOD.
I CAN RESPECT THAT.

THE OTHER THING KERRY GETTING OUT IN 72 AND NOT GETTING DISCHARGED UNTIL 78, I LEFT IN 92 AND DIDNT GET DISCHARGED UNTIL 95 IT WAS THE IRR.

MONEY TALKS,B.S. JUST PILES UP.

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Yes, but your honorable discharge is probably dated for your ETS, correct?

Mine is, even though i was in the IRR until 94, my DD214 says 90.

His DD214 says 78, it shouldn't.

Kerry needs to release the 106 pages of records he refuses to release.

"Molon labe".
Leonidas, King of Sparta,
Thermopylae, 480 B.C.

YOUR RIGHT THERE,BUT I HAVE A LETTER IN MY FILE WITH THE 95 DATE ALSO GIVING ME MY IRR TIME CREDIT.

THEY BOTH HAVE RECORDS TO HAND OVER,PUT THEM IN A ROOM AT 10 PACES AND THEY CAN EXCHANGE AT THE SAME TIME.

MONEY TALKS,B.S. JUST PILES UP.

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Bush released all his records.

BTW, these documents that CBS is basing it's story on....they appear to be forgeries.

Looks like the docs Rather used on Sunday are phony. Rather is set to retire, great way to end one's career!! couldn't happen to a nicer fella. Gotta love the main stream media.

www.powerlineblog.com/
UPDATE 2: Reader John Risko adds:
I was a clerk/typist for the US Navy at the Naval Underwater Systems Center (NUSC) in Newport RI for my summer job in 1971 when I was in college. I note the following with regard to the Killian memos:

1) Tom Mortensen is absolutely correct. Variable type was used only for special printing jobs, like official pamphlets. These documents are forgeries, and not even good ones. Someone could have at least found an old pre-Selectric IBM (introduced around 1962). Actually, I believe we were using IBM Model C's at the time, which was the precursor to the Selectric.

2) I also used a Variype machine in 1971. I fooled around with it in my spare time. It was incredibly difficult to set up and use. It was also extremely hard to correct mistakes on the machine. Most small letters used two spaces. Capital letters generally used three spaces. I think letters like "i" may have used one space. Anyway, you can see that this type of machine was piloted by an expert, and it would NEVER be used for a routine memo. A Lt. Colonel would not be able to identify a Varitype machine, let alone use it.

3) US Navy paper at the time was not 8 1/2 x 11. It was 8 x 10 1/2. I believe this was the same throughout the military, but someone will have to check on that. This should show up in the Xeroxing, which should have lines running along the sides of the Xerox copy.

4) I am amused by the way "147 th Ftr.Intrcp Gp." appears in the August 1, 1972 document. It may have been written that way in non-forged documents, but as somone who worked for ComCruDesLant, I know the military liked to bunch things together. I find "147 th" suspicious looking. 147th looks better to me, but the problem with Microsoft Word is that it keeps turning the "th" tiny if it is connected to a number like 147. And finally......

5) MORE DEFINITIVE PROOF OF FORGERY: I had neglected even to look at the August 18, 1973 memo to file. This forger was a fool. This fake document actually does have the tiny "th" in "187th" and there is simply no way this could have occurred in 1973. There are no keys on any typewriter in common use in 1973 which could produce a tiny "th." The forger got careless after creating the August 1, 1972 document and slipped up big-time.

In summary, the variable type reveals the Killian memos to be crude forgeries, the tiny "th" confirms it in the 8/18/73 memo, and I offer my other points as icing on the cake.

UPDATE 3: We have received so much information from readers that it's hard to keep up. Reader Fred Godel points us to Kevin Drum's Washington Monthly "Smoking gun update" stating that the White House has released copies of two of the memos and left their authenticity undisputed. Reader John Burgess adds:
I'm afraid the Post 47 at Free Republic is not compelling. By 1969, I was using an IBM Selectric typewriter, with proportional type balls. They were widely available in the public sector-and thus readily available to the military. I do not recall having used a Palatine typeface, but Times Roman was certainly common. While I do think the entire argument about "Bush/AWOL" is bull, the raising of type faces is not useful. In fact, it's counterproductive because it's demonstrably false.
Reader Chris Rohlfs points to another "document in Bush's record (www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc27.gif) which, if real (I got that link from here) appears to have some typing from the same typewriter. Look at the word 'Recommend.'" Reader Larry Nichols adds:
What a freakin' joke! I served in the Air Force for 21 years -- 1968 to 1989 -- the first 7 as a Personnel Specialist and the remainder as a PSM (Personnel Systems Manager). I also spent 2 years as an inspector at Hq SAC, Offutt AFB, NE in Omaha, inspecting Personnel Offices at all 26 SAC bases. As a PSM I had to know every job in Personnel, including the proper filing of documents in individual military records. Memos were NOT used for orders, as the one ordering 1LT Bush to take a physical. This would have done as a letter, of which a copy should have been sent to the CBPO (Consolidated Base Personnel Office) to be filed in 1LT Bush's military record. Memos DID NOT get filed in personnel records.

I first used a computer in the Air Force in 1971 while stationed at Albrook AFB, Canal Zone. The computers were used only for updating records data. The Air Force was the first branch of the military to use a mainframe (Burroughs B-3500) computer for updating military records. Punch cards were used up until then. There were no Word Processors used until the late 1970's or early 1980's. Typewriters were still used extensively until the mid-1980s. These memos appear to be bogus.

As far as an Officer Effectiveness Report (OER) on Bush, unless he was under a supervisor for X number of days during a reporting period, no report could be written. Under special circumstances, a report could be written with only 60 days of supervision. The period may cover an extended period. Example: FROM 1 JUN 1970 THRU 15 DEC 1971 (more than 1 year) DAYS SUPERVISED: 60. The "vanilla civilian" Liberals and Journalists should quit trying to talk and write about things they know nothing about. In Sen. Kerry's case, that includes almost everything!

Finally -- finally for the moment -- reader Joshua Persons writes:
I've written a post regarding the forgery post on my weblog (click here). Mostly a rehash, but I googled and found a comparable, unrelated government memo from 1972 for visual comparison. Check it out at www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/72e30.pdf .
UPDATE 4: Charles Johnson has written to let us know that he has resolved the issue: "Bush Guard documents: Forged."


"Molon labe".
Leonidas, King of Sparta,
Thermopylae, 480 B.C.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Forget and the military record hype, look at Kerry's record in the senate. Look at what Bush has tried to accomplish and what he has failed to accomplish. For me it is easy math. Kerry as CNC would be a disaster for the military and the U.S.

Fender
"A woman drove me to drink
and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her".
W.C. Fields

IT WOULDNT SURPRIZE ME THAT THEIR FAKES,JUST LIKE THEIRS SOME FOLKS OUT THEIR LYING ON BOTHSIDES

BUSH HASNT RELEASED ALL HIS RECORDS,BECAUSE THEY WERE LOST. BUT THEN AGAIN SOME MAGICALLY RE APPEREARED ETC......

I THOUGHT THIS WOULD GET SOME RESPONSE.

MONEY TALKS,B.S. JUST PILES UP.

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

HOLY WT POST SNIPE MASTER

I HIT 3000 POST!!!!!!!!!<img src=newicons/anim_bow.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bow.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I HAVE TO THANK ALL OF YOU AND THIS <img src=newicons/bounce.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_cussing.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/pain10.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/madani.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/bounce.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_furious.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle>POLITICAL SEASON FOR MY ACCOMPLISHMENT

THANK-YOU

MONEY TALKS,B.S. JUST PILES UP.

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\"Live Free Or Die\"

Way to go Goose! Definitely a life accomplishment!<img src=newicons/anim_bannana.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles (6/10/04 was the day)

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will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

Again Sir Goose you are the master. <img src=newicons/anim_bow.gif border=0 align=middle>

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

_________________
YGBSM !

like ollie north said if these are proved to be a forgery Kerry and the Democrats are dead. What disaster.

from power line site above the shit is hitting the fan now the Democrats are blaming Bush. (now a good republican would not give his democrat friend thess documents and allow them to run off at the mouth would they.)

Matt Drudge, who crashed our server earlier today by linking to our first post on the 60 Minutes hoax, is now headlining: "CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED." Drudge reports:

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

Tomorrow morning, dinosaur media across the country will be headlining the 60 Minutes "scoop" as a blow to
the Bush campaign. Before their newspapers are even printed, not only is the story obsolete, but CBS is in full retreat. As Stephen Hayes reported earlier today, Power Line "led the charge" against the 60 Minutes hoax today. But the credit really goes to the incredible power of the internet. We knew nothing; all of our information came from our readers. Many thousands of smart, well-informed people who only a few years ago would have had no recourse but perhaps to write a letter to their local newspaper, now can communicate and share their expertise in real time, through sites like this one. The power of the medium is incredible, as we've seen over the last fourteen hours.

Thanks to our readers; we were able to publish only a small fraction of the information we got on the fake documents. But it was more than enough.

UPDATE: ABC News breaks the MSM boycott:

Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly discovered documents relating to George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.

Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real.

"The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."

First reported by CBS's 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them.

Connell said Killian did not type, and though he did take notes, they were usually on scraps of paper. "He was a person who did not take copious notes," she said. "He carried everything in his mind."

Killian's son, Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father, also told ABC News Radio that he doubts his father wrote the documents. "It was not the nature of my father to keep private files like this, nor would it have been in his own interest to do so," he said.

"We don't know where the documents come from," he said, adding, "They didn't come from any family member."

Connell said her late husband would be "turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman," and she is "sick" and "angry" that his name is "being battled back and forth on television."

Her late husband was a fan of the young Bush, said Connell, who remarried after her husband died in 1984. "I know for a fact that this young man … was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the Guard, and he was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th."

It's the end of the line, I think, for Dan Rather and 60 Minutes.
Posted by Hindrocket at 10:32 PM | Permalink | TrackBack (42)
Ben Barnes: Another Hoax?

Actually, I'm sure that Ben Barnes' claim of having interceded to place President Bush in the Texas Air National Guard as a favor to his family is a hoax. What I'm not sure about is whether this report is correct:

A woman alleging herself to be none other than Amy Barnes, daughter of fromer Lt Gov Ben Barnes called into a Texas radio program being hosted by well-known host Monica Crowley.

The woman, stating that her politics differed greatly from her Fathers, stated that he informed her months ago that he was going to "go public" with this story, known to be false. She claims that he has acknowledged the untruthfulness of this story to her over the years. She claims that there are two motivations for his doing this. One, to gain publicity for a book he is writing and, 2 the desperation of the Kerry campaign at this moment in time. Apparently Barnes offered to carry this tainted water if it appeared necessary in the general election to help secure a Kerry victory.

I cannot personally verify the woman's identity, although Barnes does indeed have a daughter Amy. Also, WABC radio has replayed the phone-in interview twice tonight in drive time radio host Mark Levin's program.

Posted by Hindrocket at 10:04 PM | Permalink | TrackBack (3)

CNN, FOX, MSN are erroring on these documents being questionable and probably forgeries. Poor Dan Rather.

Bush Guard flight logs released
Authenticity of Bush Guard memos questioned

Friday, September 10, 2004 Posted: 8:35 AM EDT (1235 GMT)

story.bush.ap.jpg
President Bush sits in an F-102 jet while in the Texas Air National Guard in an undated file photo.

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WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush began flying a two-seat training jet more frequently and twice required multiple attempts to land a one-seat fighter in the weeks just before he quit flying for the Texas Air National Guard in 1972, his pilot logs show.

The logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 trainers in February and March 1972, including eight times in one week and four of those only as a co-pilot. Bush, then a first lieutenant, flew in T-33s only twice in the previous six months and three times in the year ending July 31, 1971.

The records also show Bush required two passes to land an F-102A fighter on March 12 and April 10, 1972. His last flight as an Air National Guard pilot was on April 16.

Meanwhile, questions were raised Thursday about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos purporting to have been written by one of Bush's commanders in 1972 and 1973. The memos, which were publicized by CBS News on its "60 Minutes" program, say Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Guard pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.

The network defended the memos, saying its experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian. (Bush military memos)

But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos. Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.

"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."

The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.

"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript -- a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" -- as evidence indicating forgery.

Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.

The Defense Department released Bush's pilot logs this week under pressure from a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Associated Press. The logs do not explain why Bush was flying T-33s or why he twice needed multiple approaches to make landings.

White House spokesman Trent Duffy said Thursday said he had no information on the reasons behind the multiple-approach landings or the surge in training-jet flights.

"He did his training and was honorably discharged," Duffy said.

Former Air National Guard officials contacted by the AP said there could be reasons for the trainer flights and multiple-approach landings which have nothing to do with Bush's pilot skills.

Bush could have flown T-33s so many times because his unit did not have enough F-102A jets available that week, for example, said retired Maj. Gen. Don Shepperd a former head of the Air National Guard. Another former Air National Guard chief, retired Maj. Gen. Paul A. Weaver, said he saw nothing unusual about Bush making more than one landing attempt.

"It doesn't mean anything to have multiple approaches," Weaver said.

Bush's Vietnam-era Air National Guard service became a focus of Democratic criticism this week amid a flurry of new reports about his activities. Democrats say Bush shirked his National Guard duties, a claim Bush denies.

Republican critics have accused Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam combat veteran, of fabricating the incidents which led to his five medals.

Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, serving more than a year on active Air Force duty while being trained to fly F-102A jets. He was honorably discharged from the Guard in October 1973 and left the Air Force Reserves in May 1974.

The first four months of 1972 are at the beginning of a controversial period in Bush's Guard service. After taking his last flight in April 1972, Bush went for six months without showing up for any training drills. In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to an Alabama Guard unit so he could work on a political campaign there.

That May, Bush also skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded Bush on Aug. 1, 1972.

Bush's pilot logs showed regular training in the F-102A until Feb. 9, 1972, when he flew 1.4 hours as the pilot of a T-33. After seven more flights in the F-102A, Bush made eight more T-33 flights between March 9 and March 15, including the four as co-pilot.

He flew an F-102A on March 12 and eight more times in April 1972.

MY god, if you read that last story, the subtle bias slaps you right in the face.

It's sickening.

Oh....CONGRATZ GOOSE!

"Molon labe".
Leonidas, King of Sparta,
Thermopylae, 480 B.C.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Bush's pilot logs showed regular training in the F-102A until Feb. 9, 1972, when he flew 1.4 hours as the pilot of a T-33. After seven more flights in the F-102A, Bush made eight more T-33 flights between March 9 and March 15, including the four as co-pilot.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> if the logs show regular training then that would mean he likely made his drills, otherwise wouldn't he no longer be current in the A/C ?



You look as lost as a bastard child on Fathers day.

_________________
\"One of you is gonna fall and die, and I'm not cleaning it up\"