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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2006, 19:29 
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Hey guys,

In a discussion on another forum that stemmed from a UK Telegraph article about the SAS guy that quit because of "illegal" American tactics, there's some folks who are claiming that American behavior in combat is inherently unprofessional, ranging from criticism of homemade videos made by soldiers being unprofessional to the reaction of pilots after successfully completing a mission (see below) to a video of an Apache fratricide incident where when they thought the target was an enemy target and the Hellfire hit, they shouted about how they destroyed the "muther fockers!"

I'm not trying to respond in a UK vs. US way, as I'm not interested in a national pissing contest, but the argument is that every video I see of Americans it's like they think war is a video game while the Brits are calm, cool, and collected.

If anybody knows of a good site for British flight videos that include the communications feed where they get excited after destroying a target or if you have some personal stories that would refute what these guys are trying to argue, I'd appreciate it.

If you want to check out the thread and/or respond yourself, here's the first message in the thread (warning - it's quite a long one by now).

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboar ... 6-1749.asp

Here's one of the messages in the thread:

<blockquote>your point about the military culture being a reflection of the popular culture is i expect very true.

the british/american cultural difference is fairly profound and an excellent example comes to mind. i watched some footage of airmen just landed after the first airstrikes in gulf 1. the first up were some eagle pilots who were hopping about, yelling and high fiving each other like they had just won their highschool football championship. all quite exuberant. the next group to go past the camera were tornado crew who were strolling along discussing what they had done. the reporter stuck his mike in the leaders face and was simply told that the PR officer was over there and would be briefing in a short time and sorry we cannot talk to you as we need to brief for our next mission. Very low key and matter of fact. it really came across as a men and boys situation despite their ages/jobs being the same etc.</blockquote>

<img src="http://www.lewis.army.mil/transformation/stryker_c130/images/ICV_0090.jpg" border=0>


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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2006, 22:56 
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I think this post is out of Topic,
It needs to go down in the General or Political area.

I saw pilots who came back UP-CLOSE AND PERSONAL that were"White as a Ghost" but after un-assing the Jet tried not to show it by
"HI-5 ing" their wingman and us CrewChiefs.

I bet you didnt know either that later on in the War around
"Highway 1" the Pilots were seeing what was happening and let the "Rocks" get out and run before making their runs on the equipment in the road boxed in,to get out of the way unless they shot back at them,then they got 30MM .

I look at it this way, I wasnt up there doing the things they were doing, and the threats they faced, the AAA, SAMS etc... they delt with to do their job, and we're their some "Friendly Fire" accidents?
Yes, and I'm sure before they found out they were "saying "M-F"
but do you think they did after killing a friendly? I bet they werent saying that.
I wouldnt trade places with them,they live with that everyday until they die.

But how many Ground pounders did those pilots Save by being
"Hard Chargers and getting on the dedk"? A HELL OF ALOT!, and by loosing some of our pilots to POWS status and the others KIA,A-10's coming back SHOT TO HELL! If they wanted to "SPIKE THE BALL" WHO CARES".
Who are we to Judge them?

Thats the Way I feel, and If someone doesnt like it, thats their right.

But I would have them go to the Discovery Channel and watch the
"Kill Box,or the Tornado spotlights from the war, They get their
"Cheering into on the Comm".

Goose

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 07:11 
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Yes well maybe you are correct, maybe you are but let me see what I know HISTORICALLY to be true.
While the United States is defined as a Western nationthere are certain areas where WE do not always characteristically tow the line. Your society is built upon a much more structured foundation. What I mean by this is your concern with a persons staton in life is much more predominant in all aspects of your lives than we frankly give a shit about. Now to be fair I know that SAS troops (and I'll say SBS because I am a former sailor) are the most highly trained special ops troops in the world. And yes they are cooler in their attitude than we Americans are. But we are not as accustomed to getting our arses kicked as you have been in the past, making our attitudes different. Youre nation as well as most European nations have been tempered by thousands of years of wars, some successfull some not. But in those wars your rigid stoicism that you glean from your foolish notions about nobility and aristocracy have often got you a royal drumming at the hands of the bad guys. Lexington, various Napoleanic land battles, the charge of the light brigade, Jutland (dont even deny it)and there was a couple times during Market Garden. I mean I am not knockin it, I am not, I consider myself a loyal royalist (displaced of course) just having been granted our family crest by parliament four years ago for long standing service to Her Majesties kingdom. However we dont make our people go t language school to speak different dialects of English to become an officer like you do. Societal classes permeate everything in England including your war faces. Its all about what is proper and honorable.
You should read "The return To Camelot; Chivalry and the English Gentleman", Mark Girouard, Yale University Press 1981.
For Americans chivalry went out at Verdun and The Somme.
But that is just a feeble, humble uneducated opinion.

"No man can do wrong by lying himself close along side a frenchman"..........Nelson

"By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a peerage or Westminster Abbey !" Nelson the Immortal Memory

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 08:40 
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Please keep in mind Shek is a Captain in the US Army and a West Point grad... <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

At any rate, though this doesn't support Shek's cause in the least, I've seen "raw" A-6 video of where they're approaching some form of refueling station, one of the crew says something along the lines of,"Any body need to fill'er up?" and garnered a response from the monitoring command along the lines of,"Do your job and shut the F*** UP!"

Personally, what I view as professional is if the job was well-done at the end of the day. Anything else that does not interfere with that is irrelevent somantics.

Crushed under his own mental block...


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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 09:37 
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I'm not knocking the Captain, I know who he is,I respect that .
If that Board wants to be "Judgemental" well its their board and I'm not going over there to "PISS IN THEIR SANDBOX"


If they want to "Do CartWheels" after a mission, its not for anyone else to Judge.They werent in that seat at that time or in his head.

I'm not going to knock the Brits I have great respect for them, but in return they shouldn't knock us.

Goose

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)





Edited by - sgtgoose1 on Mar 24 2006 08:38 AM

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 10:51 
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I dont think he was knocking anything. I have heard the question before and I actually had the same conversation with a bunch of Tornado crew chiefs a few years back druing a red Flag excercise. They said the exact same thing, that we got very pumped up when we got into a scrap. We ended up at the same end; that the old world feelings of honor and chivalry had a lot to do with attitudes before and after a fight. They even agreed.

"By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a peerage or Westminster Abbey !" Nelson the Immortal Memory

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 17:38 
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Billy
I didnt think Shek was Knocking us. He was just telling us on what the other board was saying.

Its 2 differant worlds and the one day of "YAHOO" turns into a more
"Quite get the job done".
We pratice and pratice what we did for years and to see it finally pay-off( even though it was mostly thrown out by Day 2) got everyone "PUMPED-UP" it was a way for us to hide the "Scared Shitless feeling"I'm not ashamed of that I was "Scared" but did my Job

Now the guys who take Photo's of the Dead thats wrong.

But I think it gets confused with "A PARTY" and doing ones job and seeing the results.

Goose

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 20:58 
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I used to have a (classified) video of a Tornado crew hitting a SAM site. Everything was tea and crumpets until a few of the site missiles pickled off due to the explosions, then the conversation in the cockpit got quite lively! <img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I don't understand the point of this thread. Who gives a shit how different countries react after being in combat? I am sure the elation that the Strike Eagle crews demonstrated was probably more along the lines of "we made it home safe" versus "we killed a bunch of people!" I've worked with the Brits in hostile areas, and I have to admit that on average they are much more restrained in their demeanor than Americans, but that has nothing to do with the professionalism of either.

But once again, what is the point of arguing this over the Internet?

Cheers! M2


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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2006, 21:01 
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And just to add some humor to this thread, below is a great example of how "rattled" a Brit can become in the right circumstances...

http://media.putfile.com/Spitfire-Low-Pass

<b>**WARNING** Contains foul language</b>

Cheers! M2


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2006, 06:03 
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Your right Major,

Pretty good video too!


Goose

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin,
(1706 - 1790)

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2006, 06:07 
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LMAO at that video. I would have had much the same reaction.

Fender

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2006, 06:59 
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I think a lot of people's reactions would have been that they needed some new drawers! What a sweet airplane, though!

Cheers! M2


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2006, 14:25 
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Saw that before but still way awesome. One of my favourite aircraft of all times.

"By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a peerage or Westminster Abbey !" Nelson the Immortal Memory

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2006, 13:41 
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I don't mean to take sides in this, one way or the other. Personaly, I think that anyone who has been in close combat, has the God given right to say what ever they want, and in any way they want.

However, in this new era of "Embedded Reporters" and the massive proliferation of video cameras in the combat environment, the military in general is starting to learn the same hard lessons that the civilian police agencies have been coping with for the past few decades. I've worked and trained with civilian police agencies over the past 15 years, and a tough lesson they try to teach the officers, is that anything you say and do in the field, can be taped, photographed and otherwise documented and come back to bite your ass when you least expect it. I know that when in a combat, life & death, situation that it is all you can do to keep your ass in one piece without having to worry about who's looking over your shoulder. But the fact remains that there is always someone looking over your shoulder and watching you.

The High-fiving and rough comments stated in the heat of the moment, WILL be misunderstood and misreported by and to others who WILL judge you from the comfort of their homes. It ain't right, it ain't fair, but it IS FACT! It is something that needs to be taught to our people who are sent to fight, as long as we are going to allow this kind of documentation.

I firmly believe that this level of post combat exuberence has been happening since the dawn of armed combat, reguardless of nationality. Even during WW's I & II if you'd been a fly on the wall of any conflict you'd have heard much of what we hear today. But during these earlier conflicts, the press stayed in the safe areas, far behind the lines, and was spoon fed what the Generals and Politicians wanted them to hear, and very few combatants carried cameras and no civilians had cameras, let alone the means to get their images out to the world. These days however, almost every swinging dick is carrying their own camera and has satellite internet access. They have everything they need to show what they are going through, to the world, except the good judgement of how to do it, or more importantly, how NOT to use it.

As with so many other problems, I feel the answer comes in the form of training. We should be teaching our people who serve, from day one, that anything they say, do, write, express, photograph or otherwise document, can and will find it's way to some liberal, Kum-ba-ya singin' long hair son of a motherless goat, who will be more than happy to twist what they see to make our people look bad. And it ain't just the liberal leftwing these days. Now, right here in Denver, we got a bunch of crazy ultra-right-wing ass holes protesting at funeral services for fallen soldiers saying that God killed them to punish us for being such a liberal society. So now our people are getting screwed from all points of the compass. They NEED to be taught that even in the middle of the firefight, people are listing and judging every thing they say, and everything they do.

Other than the teaching of our people, the only answer would be to take a lesson from the past, and have the military control and censor everything leaving the combat area. Good luck on that these days.

Again, I don't mean to judge our people right or wrong. What they do is up to them by my standing. But there are many out there who want nothing more than to see our people fail and they are looking for anything they can use, much like the whole Rodney King incident with the LAPD.

To any of our brothers and sisters in the field, do yourselves a favor and keep your pics to yourself at least long enough to give them a second thought before showing them to the world. There's a lot of evil SOB's out there that will turn the tables on you in a NY Second, and your NCO's and Officers won't be able to help once it's out, and the politicians will just hang you out to dry. I know it sucks, but thats the world we live in.

Hang tough.

"Slow is Fast - Fast is Slow"

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2006, 14:53 
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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006, 10:01 
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I did'nt check out the vid due to dial-up, but I'm willing to bet it is the one of Alain de Cadenet about to have a free haircut courtesy of the late great Ray Hanna.
The British and New Zealand airshow crowd's lost the best peacetime Spitfire pilot last December when Ray died age 77, only weeks after the display season finished.
Ray Hanna got the Red Arrow's on their way to being the best military aerobatic team in the world as their first leader in the 60's.
His Spitfire display's at Biggin are going to be sorely missed.
Good video though!


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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006, 20:59 
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Thanks to everyone for replying. My take is that the results speak for themselves and that while cultural differences will result in different reactions, these different reactions don't reflect at all upon one's professionalism (I think some of the confusion was that I didn't specify that the quote in the original post was not mine, but rather someone else's).

This was the message that I was trying to convey on the other board, but there were those that were insistent that the very fact of making a video was unprofessional (although most videos are actually just still photos edited into a video) that that different reactions were just manifestations of cultural differences/two nations separated by the same language type thing.

<img src="http://www.lewis.army.mil/transformation/stryker_c130/images/ICV_0090.jpg" border=0>


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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006, 22:18 
I think that most brits need to loosen their ass cheeks so that the butt plug falls out...but hey, that's just me. ;)

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2006, 10:36 
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Here is some Brit photage i'm sure you would like to sling back at the site...

How to absolutly positivly get your young teenage hajji ass beat in the mid afternoon before prayer hour.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/73359/british_brutality/


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