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PostPosted: 06 Aug 2006, 18:24 
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Ok, I know it's been said that prior to Desert Storm the Air Force wanted to retire the A-10 and replace it with the F-16. My question is was this ever the "Official" statement and was anything ever put in writing or handed out to the media? I've tried doing a search online to see if I can find a newspaper clipping or article relating to the matter but have thus far unsuccessful.

Do any of you have an article or know of a link to such an article?

TIA


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PostPosted: 06 Aug 2006, 19:13 
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While this link is not official, it is fairly factual in coverage of the F/A-16 debacle...errr...story.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article18.html

Here's another unofficial link with some good info:

http://www.voodoo.cz/falcon/versions.html

The F/A-16 program came to a screeching halt during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. The Syracuse guys claimed it would be the "flyoff that never happened", but they gave up before hostilities started. Seems that when they shot the 30mm gun pod, the aircraft shook so bad the landing gear would come down. Among other bad things.

Also, you may want to look up an article from the Air Force Magazine published about 1988 titled "Slow Ducks are Dead Ducks", an article by Big City Bob Russ (RIP) chock full of lies and misinformation about both the A-10 and the proposed F/A-16.

Coach


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PostPosted: 06 Aug 2006, 21:16 
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Boy that was some Fly-off <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle> that never happened.

Hey they dropped good bombs, we just did it all and Kicked ASS!!!!!
I'm sorry but We did, We all know it.

Goose



I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!

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PostPosted: 06 Aug 2006, 22:23 
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Thanks Coach, those links help with some of the info I was looking for. However, my question remains about weither or not the AF was truly going to retire the A-10 (with or without a replacement). I remember hearing stories that certain Generals didn't like the A-10 and wanted it retired because it didn't fit into the Air Force's High Tech mentality.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is if the planned retirement of the A-10 was based on facts or someone misinterpretation.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2006, 06:38 
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I don't have an answer to that questions...but I've said it before and I'll say it again...what are people thinking of when they match F-16 up with CAS over the A-10? Being that this is a forum for A-10 enthusiasts, I realize I'm preaching to the choir...but if anyone has a logical argument, please entertain me. Educate me!

PILSUNG!

"A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing."
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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2006, 08:28 
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Hitler, I don’t have any documents stating the retirement of the A-10 but, the best evidence for it being true, and in fact having started before Desert Storm, is the 177 A-10s placed in the boneyard starting in 1989. Remember they were only half-way through their projected life span at the time. Also some (a lot) of the 1988 BRAC recommendations were based on the fact the A-10 was headed out of the inventory. Look at the bases closed by BRAC, England AFB LA., Myrtle Beach AFB SC, Alconbury Uk., and so on. Yes the A-10 was headed for the boneyard and the thing that saved them was it’s performance in Desert Storm

I'll look through some of my documents first chance I get and see what I can come-up with.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2006, 17:17 
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I just remember and if Trickylil was around she would too,Mac probably remembers too.
They came down to the Squadron and told us that the A-10 was going to the Army and some of us would have to go either "Volunteering or Forced" until the ARMY could handle it.
This was around June 90,alot of us CrewChiefs with secondary AFSC's and others who were willing to train went over to CBPO and put in for AFSC changes to beat the "ARMY" game.
If it wasnt for that meeting I wouldnt of asked to go back to MAC.

I got my orders for TRAVIS AFB while in the SANDBOX in October,MR Goodwrench got his to go for C-5 school at Dover along witk Jenky and someone else.
They all left in DEC ,but since I didnt need to go TO SCHOOL LT "O" put a "HOLD" ON MY ORDERS, which I didnt mind until he thought it was going to be thru.But MAC wanted me ASAP so he let me go home on my 60 DAYs before PCS mark or FEB 28,91.
There was a bunch of us who had orders to PCS as soon as we got back.
Before the BRAC report came out.

We were briefed because the 76th was going to be the Squadron to go to the Army First from the 23rd.



Goose

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2006, 19:05 
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I don't have a copy, but 31 Oct 90, the TAC/DO sent out a message detailing the closing down of the entire active duty A-10 fleet. It directed when units would close, when training units would graduate their last classes, aircraft would be moved to the boneyard, etc. For example, the 91AIV class at Weapons School was to have been the final A-10 FWIC class, had the program gone as printed. All the active duty units would have been closed by the end of 1994. I never saw a retraction of that message, but it didn't quite go down like that.

The enemy always gets a vote.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2006, 19:27 
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I know when I went through tech school in 95 our instructors said they had just started A-10 crew chief school again...don't know how true it was though....

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2006, 23:42 
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Outstanding info, It’s great to hear the stories from you guys that where there during that period. I missed out on all of this when it happened because I was stationed in Panama during 89-90 and then when I got to Shaw the unit I was assigned to had Slow-V-10’s up until around 91 or 92. As much as I love the A-10, I think I would have went back to my secondary AFSC (F-16’s) over training Army troops to work on them. Which brings up another question, I thought there was some kind of agreement made when the Air Force became a separate department that the Army wouldn’t have fixed wing fighters? If that’s true, how was the Army going to take over the A-10 mission?

capche-capche da - we go forward together

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PostPosted: 08 Aug 2006, 05:12 
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The Key West Agreement of 1948. The Army won't fly heavy fixed wing aircraft and we won't fly armed helicopters. Or something like that.


Coach


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PostPosted: 08 Aug 2006, 16:43 
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Coach had that on the Ball!

Some folks wanted the change because they would get a Promoted while some of Us would actually be -Demoted mostly affecting US SSGT's
Which wasnt cool,plus having to go to Army WTS and all that stuff wasnt for me I was a Born Wrench Bender.

nd really its a Bad thing to say but "Desert Storm" saved the A-10.
It proved everything that the books and papers said bad about the HOG AND PROVED THEM WRONG!
From WILD WEASELS,DIVE BOMBERS,NAIL FAC
AIR TO AIR ,INTERDICTION,SAR,CAS,RECON,HEAVY BOMBER,ANTI-TANK,ANTI-PERSONEL,GETTING THE PILOT BACK AFTER GETTING THE SHIT BLOWN OUT OF HIM I dont think there was a job we didnt get assigned to.

But than again alot of old work horses,the F-4,A-7,A-4 F-14 got to taste their last "Blood".

Goose

I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!

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PostPosted: 08 Aug 2006, 22:24 
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Coach, thanks for the tip on the Key West Agreement. I did a Google search and came up with some interesting reading. Here's an exert from one of the articles I've found concerning the Apache and the A-10 (full article can be found at http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/).

<i>It all goes back to the end of World War II, when the Air Force became an independent service of the armed forces. (Before and during the war, air forces were a branch of the Army.) In its first few years of independence, the Air Force became involved in tumultuous budget battles with the other services. Finally, in April 1948, Secretary of Defense James Forrestal called a meeting with the service chiefs in Key West, Fla., where they divvied up "roles and missions." The emerging document was called the Key West Agreement. An informal understanding that grew out of the accord was that the Air Force (and, to an extent, the Navy) would have a monopoly on fixed-wing combat planes.

The Key West Agreement specified that one mission of the Air Force would be close air support for Army troops on the battlefield. However, it soon became clear that the Air Force generals—enamored of the A-bomb and then the H-bomb—had no interest in this task. To their minds, the next war would be a nuclear war. Armies would play no serious role, so why divert airplanes to giving them cover?

The Army realized it would have to provide its own air support. Blocked from building its own fixed-wing planes, it built rotary-wing planes (or, in civilian parlance, helicopters). And it built thousands of them.

During the Vietnam War, the Air Force's reluctance—at times refusal—to provide close air support became a grave problem. Congressional hearings were held on the lack of any airplane dedicated to that mission. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara briefly brought a wing of the Navy's late-'40s A-1 fighter bombers out of mothballs to take up some of the slack.

Finally, the Army got bold and began research and development on a hybrid aircraft, a bizarre-looking fixed-wing helicopter called the Cheyenne.

McNamara killed the Cheyenne before it got off the ground, but meanwhile, an Air Force general named Richard Yudkin was furious about the Army's maneuver. He saw it as an infringement of the Key West Agreement and a raid on the Air Force's share of the budget. In response, he initiated the Air Force's very first dedicated close-air-support attack plane called the A-X, which grew into the A-10.

Yudkin was a bit of a rebel within the Air Force. The establishment generals (who, by the early '70s, were still dominated by the nuclear-bomber crowd) hated the idea of the A-X for the same reason they hated the close-air-support mission: It had nothing to do with the Air Force's bigger, more glamorous roles. Yudkin couldn't even get the Air Force R & D directorate to work on the project, so he set up his own staff to do it.

The A-10 rolled onto the tarmac in 1976. The brass still hated the thing. It survived only because of pork-barrel politics—it was built by Fairchild Industries in Bethpage, Long Island, home district of Rep. Joseph Addabbo, who was chairman of the House appropriations' defense subcommittee. The plan was to build 850 of the planes. By 1986, when Addabbo died, Fairchild had built just 627, and the program came to a crashing halt. No more A-10s were ordered, and 197 of those in existence were transferred to the Air National Guard and allowed to rot.

When the first Gulf War was being planned in 1990, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, the chief of U.S. Central Command, had to fight the Air Force to send over a mere 174 A-10s for his use. Yet in the course of the war, those A-10s knocked out roughly half of the 1,700 Iraqi tanks that were destroyed from the air, as well as several hundred armored personnel carriers and self-propelled artillery guns. They also conducted search and rescue operations, blew up roads and bridges, and hunted for Scuds.

Even the Air Force brass had to admit the planes had done a good job, and they kept them in the fleet. (They had planned on replacing all of them with modified F-16s.) Though the statistics aren't yet in, the A-10s seemed to do well in Gulf War II, especially now that the Army, Air Force, and Marines are more inclined to coordinate their battle plans.

The A-10 is an unsightly, lumbering beast of a plane. (It's commonly called the Warthog.) It flies low and slow, but its cockpit is made of titanium; it can be shot up very badly, all over, and still not crash. It was the only plane that the Desert Storm air commanders dared fly at under 15,000 feet. Its GAU-8 gun can fire 3,900 rounds of 30 mm armor-piercing ammo per minute. It can also fire Maverick air-to-ground missiles.

So here's a suggestion for Donald Rumsfeld: Deep-six the Apache, and restart the A-10.</i>

capche-capche da - we go forward together

Faugh ah Ballaugh -Clear The Way-

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