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Guys, i accidentally deleted this thread while learning the new board's admin controls.

Whoops...

Looks like censorship form Lockmart!

LOL Those Snipers take out everything.

LOL, a little friendly fire this time. Glad there was no live ordnance in play.

Well, to get it back on topic:

Old Chief said that 90% of the PE mod is the A-10+ mod, and only costs about 10% of the price.

Did Coach answer as to whether the remaining 10%, mainly the digital ACP, is worth that much? Whats so great about the 10% part of PE? I'm not knocking it, I'm just curious.

If by 90% you mean no 1760, no real \"smart cababilities added since onboard computers in the aircraft are already capable of handle what the MFD does, limited TGP, and No HOTAS. And costs more than 10% then sure......basically selling out for limited moving map and Microsoft in the cockpit.

I was really just curious how many planes were buying this stuff but it sounds like more than one so I got my answer...eh, only MHO...

Jack, I think the best analogy I can come up with would be this;

You can drive the whole length of I-80 in a Geo Metro or you can drive it in a BMW. Both will get you from New York to California but which would you rather drive?

Coach's major heartburn was spending money on something that was going to be replaced..and make no mistake, PE is going to happen..and that money could be better spent elsewhere. Fact is, it's not really a \"zero sum game\". GREA dollars are not out of the DOD budget, they don't even appear as a line item. Instead, it's a seperate pot, specially funded by congress and given directly to the Bureau. The multi-starred people that run the Air Force know about this and the smart ones use it to their advantage. How big is this pot you ask? Well, it bought C-130J's, it bought enough C-17's to equip a whole unit..yes, it's that big which is why I don't have a problem with spending a miniscule portion of it on this little mod. The argument might be to use this money to buy wings or engines but it can't be used for that or any other sustainment issue. Long story why not.

Bottom line Jack..PE is going to happen and it should. PE is a good mod and what's happening to the reserve/guard jets is just an interim solution to something that's been long overdue.

OC

Ummm, JMF, not sure where you're getting your info but it's not correct. HOTAS is added, TGP is enhanced, 1760 is ready to go once the paperwork clears, SADL is added (and it works).

OC

OC,
JMF worked the OT side of PE, Suite 2+, etc. If the smart MFCD (PE light) mod doesn't upgrade the physical Control Stick and Right hand Throttle grip with more switch options. Then he would be correct that the HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) controls would not be as functional as PE and Suite 2+. Suite 2+ incorporated the PE stick grip and throttle grip, but did not upgrade the TVM. Suite 2+ with the Smart MFCD might have been a closer capability to PE without using the new ICU (CICU). The original purpose of these two mods was to get a better target pod interface into the field that eliminated the use of the AIM box sooner than PE. I would have to agree with coach that everyone in the A-10 CAF seems to be going in three different directions with their own agenda. Everyone knows how tight money is and it makes more sense if everyone can get on the same page and work as team to get the best capability. Right now it looks more like Coke, Diet Coke and Coke Zero!

LOL....your right Kungfu. After seeing both I see going the route of Suite 2+ with an upgrade to the TVM would have been the best option. I know SADL works and have seen it as a stand alone mod with it still could be. I'm all capability now while waiting for the big mod I just didn't think the \"Smart\" MFD style mod addressed those needs better. It only my opinion.

Okay guys, as far as the HOTAS goes, we do change the stick grip because of added switches and I'm not sure what's limited about the map, I just get handed a stick and load it. As far as I know, it's the standard map architecture used throughout the military. And yes, the AIM box gets removed.

I've tried to explain the $$, guess I wasn't too successful..we're not talking a bunch of money here, it comes out to around 7k per aircraft for labor plus the cost of the MFCD, new power panel and new stick grip..none of which carry LockMart prices and no depot mark-up..I think everyone would be shocked at how little the whole kit costs.

So far, everyone seems to be focused on two things; the configuration and the money yet nobody has bought out the most important, at least in my opinion, issue.

I mentioned before the SADL and the fact that it works. Tied to the \"limited\"? moving map, it works extremely well. If this mod prevents one instance of fratracide, prevents the loss of just one soldier due to friendly fire then I don't give a rat's ass what it costs, it's worth it. And what of the pilot? I know there's operators here, how would you feel if you dropped a MK 82 into the middle of a friendly encampment or Mav'd a friendly vehicle? Would you second guess that call the next time? Maybe hesitate for just a second or two..just long enough to take a shoulder launched missle up the tail pipe..toss and turn at night wondering if there was anything you could have done to prevent it? dunno folks, seems to me we're focused on the wrong issues. Try to remember this is a cheap, fully reversable (you guys do know the original aircraft configuration can be restored in under an hour, yes?) INTERIM mod designed to fill a huge shortcoming until the real thing can be accomplished.

OC

OC,
I agree it's a good interim mod, but the huge focus on increased target pod integration has been around since the return of OIF deployed units in May 03. For fear of losing PE funds and focus, no body wanted anything to do with this mod initally except AFRES. The new decision to install this mod in more ANG/AFRES jets just seems to be a little late in the game to be as efffective. Troubleshooting and maintaining these temp. mods is often done without good tech data and support equipment. A modification that only takes an hour to uninstall often creates an ugly culture full of zip ties and plastic bags left in place after moving assets from jet to jet and unit to unit. A lot of these mods are good capability demonstrators, but I don't always believe that temp installs are healthy for the fleet. The huge success of the A-10 support in OIF and OEF has opened up the doors to a lot of new ideas. Hopefully the foundation (air frame) is solid before starting any new additions. Maybe BRAC will give the testing community a few more aircraft to work with.

Let's remember that combat ID is a two way street...the aircraft cannot do it alone. So you can have all the bells and whistles you want on the jet and not be able to see the friendlies because they are not equipped to participate in the network. And dismounted troops don't usually carry much stuff that doesn't need to be there for killing bad guys, especially at 9,000 feet above sea level. The saying goes, \"dying a pound at a time\".

The 10% of PE not covered in PE-Lite (your term, not mine) is the integration. As most here know, all mods to the Hog have been add-ons and subsequently don't really talk to each other. You cannot directly transfer coordinates from the TGP to the EGI (and fire control computer) unless you have PE. I don't believe the SCMFD fixes this, but am not sure. It does make the TGP mechanization better, adds moving map and provides SADL capability. The 1760 bus is an add-on from the original SCMFD design. Only two stations rather than six for PE. The stick is different for SCMFD, which introduces significant training issues for the pilots. That is where the mixed fleet isue becomes ugly. An AIM jet is completely different switchology that a SCMFD, which is different than PE. PE adds different switches on the throttle as well.

Coach

Coach, OC I think we are on the same page here in the end. And the issue really is one of effect.. Both in the seat and when the flying is done to keep these bird ready to do it again. After have worked both of these interim solutions I threw my spears at what I see as shortcommings of the SMFCD. Especially if you can get a mod that does the same job as this SMFCD in the Iterim that accually does couple targeting pod with the targeting computer, uses the same HOTAS that we get in PE, and could easy add SADL/1760 to the mix all the while keeping many of the components added; accually pre-spending money for PE that wouldn't have to be spent twice. After seeing all that I couldn't help but wonder why the ANG/AFRES would choose this config for an Interim solution.

I aplaude us as a community to make something like the A-10 even more leathal and effective during the recent AEF/OIF's I think the plane and those that have flown and sustained have all done a hell of a job. I also think the A-10 community have proved itself over any other fighter program when we can sustain these kinds of mods without the full might of tech data/test equipment and the contractor support that is enjoyed by say our F-15 brothers. We've in many cases grown our own experts and have created the supportability we have out of thin air. We should be proud of that and what the A-10 community has achieved. But we shouldn't have to keep doing that IMHO. We are now at that hour I think where we can let the A-10 finish PE and receive all that new supportability that goes with it.

I don't know if anyone else is tired of having to rebuild and repair components that AFREP/Gold Flag can't handle and there is no more support for. People can talk about the wings being ready to fall off without SLEP but the guts have been ready to come out too. I can name a dozen parts that are hardley orderable and break all too often. PE gives us some of that supporability back and I fear a mind set that thinks these Interim solutions really are 90% of PE's cabability. The training difficulties will be seen on both sides of the house to. Remember we teach our airman to follow the book but when there is no book and the home grown experts aren't there for any reason the whole mod can fall apart pretty quick. The whole issue is one of effect....and how much good we are getting out of these mods.

No enemy has ever been bombed by a jet sitting on the ground...

Peace out.

Coach, will the TGP still be only compatible on station 9? Do you think that station 6 might work better for masking reasons.

TGP stays on 9 for the SMFCD config. Moves to 2 or 10 for PE

Well said JMF

OC