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no gun? https://warthogterritory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6792	Page 1 of 2

Author:	gifted [ 14 Aug 2004, 23:40 ]
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http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0100 ... _page.html Don't know how many of you have heard this, it was on The High Road, I figured it would fit in well here. "Some pup" Nickname by Fenderstrat72

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 15 Aug 2004, 00:07 ]
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Yeah, i saw this. Stupidity that really IS beyond belief. Thank you RAF for making our weapons acquisition machinations look downright well ordered, logical, and expeditious. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL<OLOLOLOL <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction" Ronald Reagan

Author:	boomer [ 15 Aug 2004, 10:54 ]
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if I'm not misstaken they have killed all thier fighter programs twice since WWII "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Author:	30mike-mike [ 16 Aug 2004, 06:26 ]
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Let's see, where have I seen this situation before...oh, yeah, the F-4 and Vietnam! Guess they didn't learn from our lesson. Nor have they apparently noticed that all our birds have guns now. "Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles (6/10/04 was the day)

Author:	boomer [ 16 Aug 2004, 16:52 ]
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so how many gun kills by fighter aircraft since Nam and the intro of the F-15? "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 16 Aug 2004, 21:12 ]
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How many strafing runs since Nam booms? THAT's the proper question. I'd bet it's about oh.........20,000. "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction" Ronald Reagan

Author:	boomer [ 16 Aug 2004, 21:46 ]
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oh I totaly agree on the strafing. I think the gun is no longer usefull in air-to-air that was where I was going. For mudmovers "targets of oppertunity" require a gun wheather it's personnel or a string of fuel trucks you found while getting lost lol. "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 16 Aug 2004, 23:10 ]
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Every fighter is a potential ground attack asset...IF it has a gun. No gun, and an AAW loaded fighter can't do anything but circle overhead as he watches the good guys positions get overrun. I'm not agreeing the gun is obsolete for A2A though. I doubt many of the pilots here would agree either, but hey...i could be wrong. PS...the A-10 had two gun kills during ODS against Mi-24 Hinds. "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction" Ronald Reagan

Author:	30mike-mike [ 17 Aug 2004, 05:39 ]
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Kinda like having that smaller backup pistol in the ankleholster. Maybe you'll never need it, but just in case... "Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles (6/10/04 was the day)

Author:	a10stress [ 17 Aug 2004, 08:47 ]
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> oh I totaly agree on the strafing. I think the gun is no longer usefull in air-to-air that was where I was going. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> For me, the point of having an A2A gun is to deny the enemy the option of closing the range to hundreds of feet because he knows you have no weapon to use against him. This can happen with the many on one scenario if there are some "leakers", or if there are BVR system malfunctions and coordination foul-ups. It's a defense in depth philosophy. If the gun is deleted, it must be replaced by another short range weapon (a beam weapon?) or the enemy will take advantage of the weakness. This is one of those evergreen issues that continuously bloom because weight and space in a fighter is hard to come by. THE CRAPTOR ENGINEERING TEAM <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> "The F-22...It's the poo"

Author:	boomer [ 17 Aug 2004, 08:57 ]
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Jeeze Stress that's a great point! "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel ! <img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Author:	mattlott [ 17 Aug 2004, 18:10 ]
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the gun is necessary especially when the rules of engagement require visual identification. I can think if a pilot was required to move in close to give a hijacked plane a choice between landing or being shot down the gun give the pilot more options to act quickly. Or heaven forbid the situation were to require trying to damaging not necessarily kill a target on a gun would even come close to providing that flexibility.

Author:	mattlott [ 18 Aug 2004, 03:24 ]
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On other thought down here in Louisiana with our coast line and everything that gets smuggled in the gun does give the f-15s anther option in homeland security if a boat or ship attempts to enter with a weapon or terrorist. Unless we are going to start loading our planes with harpoon missles I dont see any other entity that can respond rapidly with during a threat than the fighters we already have on alert. Seems to me the Brits are loosing a whole lot of flexibility and gaining nothing in return.

Author:	bfng3569 [ 20 Aug 2004, 08:46 ]
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"But the hi-tech jet's sophisticated computerised flight controls rely on the ballast the gun provides. Engineers attempted to substitute lumps of lead or concrete before deciding it was cheaper to fit the cannon, newspapers reported." So they are actually leaving the gun in for ballast, but its just not going to be functional??

Author:	Horrido [ 20 Aug 2004, 09:10 ]
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Yeah, kinda like France is to the EU. Livin' life in the fast lane and just passed a blur reading "BRIDGE OUT!"

Author:	30mike-mike [ 20 Aug 2004, 09:21 ]
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<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle> Ummm...Horrido? You forgot to <spit> "Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles (6/10/04 was the day) Edited by - 30mike-mike on Aug 20 2004 08:23 AM

Author:	Horrido [ 20 Aug 2004, 09:38 ]
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It would have disrupted the flow of the insult. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Livin' life in the fast lane and just passed a blur reading "BRIDGE OUT!"

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 20 Aug 2004, 10:53 ]
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So then explain the capital F sir! "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum...and i'm all out of bubblegum".

Author:	30mike-mike [ 20 Aug 2004, 11:02 ]
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Yeah, 'splain that! "Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles (6/10/04 was the day)

Author:	Horrido [ 20 Aug 2004, 12:02 ]
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My mom is an English teacher, I was beaten for gramatical and spelling errors... You will never understand the fear and anxiety Dice's and Luna's posts cause me. <img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Livin' life in the fast lane and just passed a blur reading "BRIDGE OUT!"

Author:	a10stress [ 20 Aug 2004, 12:27 ]
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> "But the hi-tech jet's sophisticated computerised flight controls rely on the ballast the gun provides. Engineers attempted to substitute lumps of lead or concrete before deciding it was cheaper to fit the cannon, newspapers reported." <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> Another example of the unsophisticated media garbling the message. I'll try to make up an explaination. It's totally made up but plausible. By the time the latest round of debates on the efficacy of a gun came around, the guns were already in the process of procurement and the design/fabrication of the mounting in the airplane was done. It would have cost just as much to stop work on the guns as to accept them, and it also would have cost more to engineer a proper ballast substitute for it, even if you scrapped the real guns. Just removing the gun would have upset the handling qualities of the flying aircraft, which could have been fixed with new flight control software, but that would also cost money. (Soft ware is the ultimate aerospace product, having the highest "specific cost". It weighs nothing and costs infinity.) The only way to save money at this stage is to make the gun non functional and delete the training and testing planned for it. This is a good approach because the result of the next debate might be a demand to add a gun to the Typhoon. Then they will have most of the work already done. At that time two new Vice Presidents (Marketing and Systems Analysis) will be named that have aircraft gun salesmenship as a key experience in their resume. THE CRAPTOR ENGINEERING TEAM <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> "The F-22...It's the poo"

Author:	30mike-mike [ 20 Aug 2004, 12:53 ]
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But you <u>are</u> grammatically incorrect- you only capitalize <i>important</i> people, places and things. france <spit> does not qualify. Now go write "france <spit>" 50 times on the white board.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> "Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles (6/10/04 was the day)

Author:	Horrido [ 20 Aug 2004, 13:59 ]
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<img src="http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/traurig/sad-smiley-034.gif" border=0> Livin' life in the fast lane and just passed a blur reading "BRIDGE OUT!"

Author:	M21 Sniper [ 20 Aug 2004, 15:33 ]
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the worse part is, even with the <spit>, you still can't really get that bad taste out of your mouth after saying the word france<spit>. Ugh...nasty. "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum...and i'm all out of bubblegum".

Author:	Lunatock [ 20 Aug 2004, 17:08 ]
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> My mom is an English teacher, I was beaten for gramatical and spelling errors... You will never understand the fear and anxiety Dice's and Luna's posts cause me. <img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Livin' life in the fast lane and just passed a blur reading "BRIDGE OUT!" <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> So'whaa? Iz ower speling a bahd theng? <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> "Is that a Ninos sub? Right on...those are some good subs. Not as good as ours of course, but still good." -Subway employee.

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