WT Forums

Home | WT Forums | Hogpedia | Warthog blog | Hosted sites
It is currently 19 Apr 2025, 16:03

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 89 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 21:41 
Offline

Joined: 09 Feb 2003, 12:17
Posts: 117
http://www.iiaf.net/stories/warstories/s5.html

"In the early days of December 1980 a single F-14 took off from Khatami Air Base in Esfehan. The pilot was patrolling and scanning the sky over the Persian Gulf about 60 to 70 miles west of Bushehr at an altitude of about 3 to 4 thousand ft. ,when ground radar advised the F-14 pilot of multiple boogies closing fast toward him. His aircraft was too far out to send in any back up help, so ground radar told the pilot you are on your own and good luck.
The pilot turned around towards them knowing he had a disadvantage in numbers. By now the F-14 and two boogies were head to head about 20 miles apart. The crew got a Phoenix Missile lock at about 10 miles, although it was a close range for phoenix. The pilot went ahead with fox1, he fired an AIM-54 phoenix. Following the smoke path of the phoenix he saw a ball of fire from the wing of MiG-21 that was breaking-up. Moments later a splash down from pieces of MiG-21 were visible in the ocean. In the mean while F-14 pilot observed the second MiG-21doing a hard G-turn away from the fire ball since the 2 MiGs were flying too close together. He was going back toward Iraq. The F-14 in pursuit could not get any radar lock on the second MiG-21 before he went super sonic.


Submitted by F-14 Pilot"

http://www.iiaf.net/stories/warstories/s6.html


In late January 1981 two F-14's from Khatami Air Force Base were on combat
patrol over the southwest region of the Persian Gulf. At around noon, Iranian ground
radar picked up a target approximately 100 to 200 feet above sea level in the southern region of the Gulf, moving at a high rate of speed toward Bushehr. The ground radar operator directed the F-14's to the incoming object. At this time the lead F-14 radar picked up the same aircraft and secured a radar lock on the target. After confirming the target was definitely hostile, and flying at a very low altitude and only a little over 30 miles away, the lead F-14 fired an AIM-54A Phoenix missile. The Phoenix hit the Iraqi SU-22 in the middle of the fuselage, cutting it in half.
Later the Radar Interception Officer in the lead F-14 reported seeing a fireball followed
by an immediate splash down in the ocean, confirming the very low altitude of the Iraqi SU-22. The RIO also observed a second SU-22 at this time, which was not picked up by radar earlier.
However the second SU-22 managed to evade the scene.




Fired those pretty close. So I guess the AIM-54A can hit a target that is agile. Infact the MiG-21MF would probaly outturn a SH.

Edited by - troung on Feb 11 2003 8:51 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 21:50 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Just sum it up, FAS is such a bad site. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Why, because it doesn't agree with you? That wasn't well thought out. I guess I was right, you're not listening .

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Well seeing as oyu said a 127 mile missile is not needed, what are you planning on fighting with those F/A-18Fs, Somalia? Indonesia? Tunisa? One things for sure the F/A-18F had better stay out of Iran our we will really see which plane is better.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> That is speculation


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"If not, I can't have this conversation with you, Troll"

You can stop anytime you want to. = )<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
By that account your admitting to not having a serious debate and guilty of Tolling. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, my error.

Like I said before, this debate was over years ago.

How do you know I'm mad You just made another big assumption. This is to help you.
Denial, Anger, acceptance-Learn it, Know it, Be it.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>



Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 11 2003 8:55 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 21:53 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
Damn.........
And I thought I was venomently pro Tomcat.........
In regards to that AIM-54, Mig-25 situation, the Mig-25 burned out its tumansky's and bingoed its fuel in a mad dash ti evade the missile, it crashed as a result. Thats one scratched Foxbat in my book.

As far as the letter I posted......Yes it was 1991, when it could have made a difference, the attitude in the fleet has not changed, but they have to fight with what tools they are given. If you give a naval aviator a choice, the majority of them would still prefer to go with a Tomcat D. But they now have to make the best of the Hornet E/F.

ROE's never cleared the use of the Pheonix in any conflict, thus the F-14 and AIM-54 waited for a battle that never came, had it been used like it was in the Iran/Iraq war, with the profiency of USN Naval Aviators, it would have had an impressive combat record.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 21:57 
Offline

Joined: 09 Feb 2003, 12:17
Posts: 117
Please read my edited posts.

The only thing your link basically claims is that the F/A-18F does not suck

http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/f ... 4f18_1.asp

“Inside Washington,” the Navy's director of operational testing is quoted as saying that the Super Hornet was superior to its earlier models “… in every category but three: acceleration, maximum speed and sustained turning performance.” This pronouncement boggled our minds because these are the very performance capabilities that determine a tactical airplane's survival. Then, as if to justify this “hand grenade,” the officer is quoted as stating that the Navy has sacrificed speed in the Super Hornet for other beneficial capabilities, and he asserts, “brute speed is no longer the discriminator it once was when the benchmark was the Soviet threat.” It is clear to us that this Naval officer doesn't have a clue about aerial combat and the importance of total energy in the complex equations of energy maneuverability. Nor does he seem to understand that Third World countries all around the globe are purchasing the very latest operational Russian-built fighters that are also licensed for production in China. The Russian aerial threat still exists; what has changed is that the pilots aren't Russians.

Reported Super Hornet problems

Although the Navy has been working very hard to correct F/A-18E/F OPEVAL problems, it is worth summing them up: the production F/A-18E/F is significantly overweight with respect to its specifications (3,000 pounds over). This is far in excess of what one would expect for a variant of an existing F/A-18A, B, C, or D. Aircraft weight estimation methods could, and should, have been much better; in fact, when we look objectively at the F/A-18E/F, we see an airplane with a brand-new wing, new fuselage and new empennage—in other words, a new airplane. This is, therefore, what Congress would call a “new start.” Both Congress and the Dept. of Defense (DoD) had to be looking the other way when the Navy was permitted to slip this airplane by as a simple modification of an existing airplane

In combat-maneuvering flight, the aircraft had severe “wing-drop” problems that defied resolution, despite the use of every aerodynamic analytical tool available. Eventually, one test pilot came up with a “leaky-fold-joint” fix that opened chordwise air slots to aspirate the wing's upper surface flow and thereby prevent the sharp stalling of one wing before the other. They stalled more or less together, but much earlier and more severely than before. This new fix is what the aerodynamicists call a “band aid.” It causes aircraft buffeting, which is generally a source of wing drag. But a “fix” that combined “acceptable” wing drop with “acceptable” buffeting had been achieved. One test pilot commented dryly, “I'd like the buffeting levels to be a little lower so I could read the heads-up display!”

Owing to its high drag and weight (and probably other factors), the F/A-18E is significantly poorer in acceleration than the F/A-18A. Also, its combat ceiling is substantially lower, and its transonic drag rise is very high. We have stayed in touch with some pilots at the Navy's test center and have gathered some mind-boggling anecdotal information. Here are some examples:

• An F/A-18A was used to “chase” an F-14D test flight. The F-14D was carrying four 2,000-pound bombs, two 280-gallon drop tanks, two HARM missiles and two Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. The chase airplane was in a relatively “clean” configuration with only a centerline fuel tank. At the end of each test flight, the chase airplane was several miles behind the test airplane when the chase airplane reached “bingo” fuel and had to return to base.

• An F/A-18E Super Hornet is tested using the same chase airplane, an earlier model Hornet, in the same configuration. The chase airplane does not need full thrust to stay with the test airplane.

• An F/A-18E/F in maximum afterburner thrust cannot exceed Mach 1.0 in level flight below 10,000 feet even when it is in the clean configuration (no external stores). At 10,000 feet, the F-14D can exceed Mach 1.6.

• A quote from a Hornet pilot is devastatingly frank: “The aircraft is slower than most fighters fielded since the early 1960s.”

• The most devastating comment came from a Hornet pilot who flew numerous side-by-side comparison flights with F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and says: “We outran them, we out-flew them and we ran them out of gas. I was embarrassed for them.”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 21:57 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>ROE's never cleared the use of the Pheonix in any conflict, thus the F-14 and AIM-54 waited for a battle that never came, had it been used like it was in the Iran/Iraq war, with the profiency of USN Naval Aviators, it would have had an impressive combat record <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Good Point. I didn't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:04 
Offline

Joined: 09 Feb 2003, 12:17
Posts: 117
So read that stuff I just pasted.

Denail, Anger, Acceptance..........

Seeing as you keep calling me a troll, I can see you are mad.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:06 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
Time will tell.........
The problem is the political landscape of the world today does not resemble the "sunshine future" that the Clinton Administration sold us on in the 1990's as a means to justify cutting the military budget. It all goes back to the guns v. butter argument.
Things are not looking so happy happy joy joy, The US is looking like she will stand alone, or with very few allies in future conflicts. Thats fine, we are up for it, and our European allies have never really been alot of help, but we need the military doctrins, and equipment to get the job done, and I am afraid that the F-18E/F is not capable of doing that job.

Time will tell...........I just dont want to see multiple Exocet missile impacts on a Nimitz class CVN to confirm my arguments.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 11 2003 9:08 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:11 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
So Troung, believe everything you read?

• The most devastating comment came from a Hornet pilot who flew numerous side-by-side comparison flights with F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and says: “We outran them, we out-flew them and we ran them out of gas. I was embarrassed for them.”

This is coming from a Test pilot whose flown both planes regarding your quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Regrettably, that article was written by two people long since out of the "know" on naval aviation, and with large political axes to grind on the subject. Much of their info is outdated, inaccurate, out of context and highly "spun" to prove their point. Don't believe everything you read in a magazine.


Just to set the record straight on this quote: The person quoted was a LCOL in a USMC FA-18D squadron. His squadron was at a Nellis Red Flag exercise during the summer of 1999, along with VX-9, which was conducting it's OPEVAL of the E/F at the time. One of the pilots with me at Eglin was on that Red Flag det (which occurred one month prior to my arrival at China Lake). He noted the quote, and told me the LCOL's name. He said the guy had friends in the Anti-E/F camp who "asked for some dirt to dish" on the new jet. They were looking for a sound bite, and he gave it to them.

That pilot also told me what really happened. He said that the statement is TRUE....except that the Super Hornets were carrying twice the A/G load to the target, not getting shot down, and egressing back to Nellis - all without any in-flight refueling, which the FA-18Ds were doing pre-strike, and on some occasions post-strike as well. So yep, the quote is based in truth...so long as you don't ask too many questions.

We all see that as the shallow, BS political sound bite that it is. Too bad it isn't as obvious to everyone else.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb ... 225#000005






<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Seeing as you keep calling me a troll, I can see you are mad<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Uhh, No. I'm calling you a troll cause I think your beginning to ACT like a troll. This is a chat group, I just shoot stuff around. Being mad here is a waste of time and energy.

However, nice try and nice find on that data in the Iran/Iraq war; that was news to me.



Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 11 2003 9:17 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:19 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
The man who wrote the article Troung quoted was Rear Admiral Paul "Punchy" Gilcrest. I have met the admiral. He has over 800 carrier traps, was the first flag officer to land the F-14 on a CV at age 51, was the CO at Miramar, and flew multiple combat tours over North Vietnam. I would take his opinion, over some idealistc "butter bar" yes man who speaks for the good of politicaly correctness any day of the week. Remember that men like the latter tried to push the F-111B through because it favored their career to do so, men like Admiral Tom Connely called a "spade" a "spade" cause they could give a rip less about gaining grease, and wanted the right aircraft for the job.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:20 
Offline

Joined: 09 Feb 2003, 12:17
Posts: 117
And what I found there were many people agreeing with me.

Well lets all not get mad at each other.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:25 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
Yeah like all of the Naval Aviation cadre, and most people with a spec of common sense.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:31 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
Troung,
Was never mad at you in the first place.

You have every right to your opinion.
Have fun and welcome to the crew<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

As for this part of the forum, has anyone noticed that there are 5 TOPICS just about the Superhornet/Tomcat! That's crazy, we need some variety.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Admiral Tom Connely called a "spade" a "spade" cause they could give a rip less about gaining grease, and wanted the right aircraft for the job. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That the guy named the Tomcat was named after?



Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 11 2003 9:35 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:35 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
yup..........They started calling the F-14 Tom's Cat, Grumman liked it and decided on Tomcat. I will drop the F-14 v. Superhornet debate if somone can prove me wrong, if not.........I am gonna keep it going.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:35 
Offline

Joined: 05 Oct 2002, 14:22
Posts: 5353
Location: Missouri
well troung, you've managed to prove the F-14/phoenix combo are capable of spashing a MiG-21 and a SU-22!! And the F/A-18 DIDnt get "spanked" by MiGs in DS , quite the opposite. As you recall 2 F/A-18s with bombs engaged 2 MiG-29s and Shot the Fulcrums down, then re-joined the strike and delivered the bombs. The Phoenix is POTENT beyond compare, but this is getting pointless(always was) and now mean spirited.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:43 
Offline

Joined: 09 Feb 2003, 12:17
Posts: 117
They shot down the J-7B fighter, which is a copy of the MiG-21F.

And for the record a F/A-18C was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25PD.


http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Day-1.htm

"F/A-18's carried ALQ-126B internal jammer, ALR-67 RWR, and ALE-39 Chaff/Flare dispensors

- The 29Jul91 "Inside the Navy" (Tom Breen) said that Industry, Navy,

and Congressional sources agree that Spiecher was downed by an Iraqi

MiG-25 Foxbat using an AA-6 ACRID Missile. Weaknesses in the ALR-

67 RHAW System with the F/A-18 might have been a factor in not

being aware of the MiG-25.

... 16Sep92, story surfaced again in the news media out of a New York Times article written by Mark Crispin Miller (a professor of media studies at Johns Hopkins University) where a "senior Navy Intelligence Officer, Capt Carlos Johnson, said "we were pretty sure at the beginning" that the F-18 flown by Speicher was downed by an Iraqi MiG-25 Foxbat. Furthermore, Commander Mike Anderson, and USN pilot in the area of the downed F-18, said that permission was not granted by AWACS for his flight to attack the Foxbat that was under surveillance prior to Speicher being hit. This might have something to do with Horner's insistance that the F-15's be the only air-to-air players and all other aircraft refrain from seeking out any Iraqi aircraft.

- Rick Atkinson, in his book "Crusade: The Untold Story of the Persian Gulf War" (pg 47), mentions that Speicher was downed by a MiG-25 that slipped through the AWACS gap."


The F-14A in IRIAF service has shot down the MiG-25.

Edited by - troung on Feb 11 2003 9:48 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:43 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
One F-18 was lost to a Mig-25.......Wasn't the aircrafts fault, was a result of poor execution.

Bomb laden F-18's did score kills and continued to their target, dropped their ordanance on target and returned to the boat, however.......They didn't score Mig-29 kills, they scored Mig-21 kills.....One of the pilots was then Lt. Cmdr. Mark Fox. The F-18 did well in Desert Storm, the F-14 didn't have an impressive showing, no D's were evolved. And one F-14A+ was bagged, and the only A2A kill was a helo with a heater.

I think Desert Storm had alot to do with the success of the Super Hornet, and the demise of the Tomcat. The Tomcat was painted as a single mission cold war warrior ill equiped to fly joint USAF/USN missions, part of this was true due to to archaic NCTR gear on most F-14A's, the F-18 had updated NCTR gear, and got to join the USAF sponsored rout.


If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 11 2003 9:45 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 22:53 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
It is not a pointless debate however........
You say its pointless because you have nothing solid to argue your point with, so in essance your rebuttles are pointless. You can stick to your guns and say its a lost cause. But you can never discredit the facts, or say that it isnt a bad decesion. I agree the F-18E/F is here to stay, and I agree our aviators have to do what they can to fight with it effectively. I think the quality of the pilot will make the F-18E/F effective, but our Naval Aviators and RIO's need an aircraft that is on par with their second to none ability's. The F-18E/F isn't it. The best way to quell an argument is to prove it wrong, Tritonal and Boomer, I respect your position's, but I cannot respect your arguments.

Pearl Harbor happended.......That is a reality, but that doesn't mean it should have, or could not have been prevented. Saying it is so, does not justify it's existance.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 11 2003 9:54 PM

Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 11 2003 9:55 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 23:34 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Yeah like all of the Naval Aviation cadre, and most people with a spec of common sense<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I didn't notice this post before. It was presumptuous and not entirely true.









Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 11 2003 10:40 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2003, 23:47 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
Its not a low blow, it is a fact. I am tired of waging a debate with people who cannot bring up facts. Luke disgreed with me, stated his points, and they were valid, even the ones I didn't completely agree with.

Mr. Mudd disagrees with some of what I say, gives valid rebuttles and makes his points. I may not always agree with them, but I acknowledge that they are valid, Mudd and Luke are fighter pilots, they have the crudentrials that I don't have, yet I feel I can disagree with them.

Tritonal, my experience with the F-14 is pretty small, I have a very small window of technical "hands on" expertise with the Tomcat, and its all way obsolete by now. I do however know many people within Naval Aviation, and have alot of experience with policy, defense postures, and doctrins. If you want to have a debate about this, post facts and back them. If you truly believe in what you are debating, stick to them. But don't complain about low blows, or unecessary roughness calls, because those things happen in debates. Thats why people in the Senate are immune to such laws as Libel. Sometimes using those tactics are the best way to make a point.



If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2003, 00:03 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
No its not a fact, all(meaning every) Navy cadre does not agree with that statement.
And Yeah, that's why I changed it to something more accurate-presumptuous. I have posted facts the best I can, I don't know what else to do. My facts come from fighter and test pilots.

And it's funny how the two FIGHTER pilots disagreed with you.

This is not exactly a pointless debate, rather dated.






Edited by - Tritonal on Feb 11 2003 11:03 PM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2003, 02:17 
Offline

Joined: 04 Aug 2002, 20:10
Posts: 1118
Tritonal......
Its very simple........You have not posted facts. Two fighter pilots disagreed with me? Where? Luke and Mr. Mudd do not always agree with me, thats the whole purpose of a discussion forum.

The plain fact is, I kick you around like a Tomato Can on this forum, and you cannot take it. If you want to debate the issue, the lets do it. But if you want to cry about the manor in which I do it then maybe you need to take a timeout with Buzz. This is nothing to get angry about........But facts are facts, you have posted nothing but opions that I have yet to see qualified.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!





Edited by - Tomcat Tweaker on Feb 12 2003 01:20 AM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2003, 03:20 
Well, first off, Troung is no Troll.

He is extremely well read(In fact i would call him a military avaition junkie), and not just on US aircraft, but ALL military aircraft.

The little VC bastard has proven me wrong on a few occasions on other boards too, lol ;)

I might also point out that the Mig-21's the encumbered F-18's took down were engaged BVR against an aircraft with NO BVR capability.
Hardly a true test of the F-18's WVR prowess(Lets face it, an encumbered F-18 trying to turn with an AAM configured Mig-21 is going to have buoque problems)

Tritonal, i can honestly say that aside from one very well known(and one who has been widely discounted as a political hack) former F-14 pilot there is little you have offered to counter the pro F-14D side.

Anybody who doesn't want to talk about this anymore can simply not post on the topic.

I think this is a lesson that the US should never forget.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.

Edited by - m21 Sniper on Feb 12 2003 02:33 AM


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2003, 03:41 
BTW Tritonal, FAS is REALLY bad for accurate data bro.

Trample the wounded- hurdle the dead.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2003, 03:58 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The plain fact is, I kick you around like a Tomato Can on this forum, and you cannot take it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

No, that is your skewed reality. But if you like to think like that to boost your frail ego, go ahead.
I have two experienced fighter pilots that are on my side, plus a CURRENT test pilot whose had more experience in a Tomcat than you can ever dream of(which you probably always do). If anyone is losing the argument I actually think it is you and your sad approach at debate. The past arguments also hold true, someone says something you disagree with and you get emotional, typical TT.

Anything you post is mostly Dated(Hmm, 200 signatures from 1991, WOW!), speculation,or hyperbole.
You say you know certain people in the Navy that disagree with the current fighter? Hmmm, how about some NAMES, DATES, CREDENTIALS, QUOTES? You state, where are your facts? I ask the same question to you.

And you talk about proving stuff to you? My plane is in service and your plane will soon be a recycled soda can, I don't need to prove anything to you. I can go any which way.
You're on the Tomcat Pedestal, you start proving stuff to me.

The decision has been made your plane is out and the SH is in. Nothing short of a miracle is going to change that. I change my mind, this debate is pointless. And you have yet nothing to say that has made me think of changing my side.

Hey, Why not start a new thread and campaign for the Boeing's JSF design or the F-23? It seems you love rooting for lost causes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2003, 04:15 
Offline

Joined: 05 Aug 2002, 13:28
Posts: 2210
Sniper,

"BTW Tritonal, FAS is REALLY bad for accurate data bro."
Correct, but So is most of the stuff on the internet.

I really had to prove but to offer another opinion from credited source, that's all. Now it just goes in circles and gets tiring. The fire of this debate is not in my belly like some people because what's done is done.



I just saw Troung state stuff and not back it up and his tactics were getting troll like. That's water under the bridge now.

I predict that all these threads will soon be locked and maybe that's a good thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 89 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group