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One other thing... If Rumsfeld gets his wish for "transformation" of the US Army we will be trying this next time with WHEELED LIGHT TANKS.

Imagine that, and this situation looks MUCH rosier...

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

Last Summer I went to a Force Recon Field Mess at Camp Pen. All the Former and Current Recon Bubbas get together to talk about all things Associated with our experiances and the new ideas, concepts and technologies.

While I was their they displayed the new Mercedes Benz 4x4 Light reconnaisance vehicles. Very small and lightweight, Diesel powered and of course spare parts are never too hard to requisition in the persia and african litorals. It was a drastic change from the old Kaiser Jeep fast attack vehicles we had. They are far superior to the Chenowith Dirt Buggies.

The rule to land warfare in the open desert is to rap allot of steel around it and move it very quickly.

I see a high benefit of use to the light attack vehicles that can carry mech infantryman to seize and envelop an enemy, thus dismounting the troops. And utiliseing the Bradleys and Tanks to maintain Supporting fires. These vehicles are highly invaluable in urban areas. The HUMMER is one of the most difficuly vehicles to transport. The Marines drive theres directly off the back of CH53E's.

Watching the Marine LAV25's in the Gulf and Somalia was amazing...

_________________
\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

LAV's have their place, but certainly NOT as direct fire main force on force units.

They are EXTREMELY useful for screening operations, flanking manuevers and of all things LOCSEC. In this particular campaign their primary usefulness would definitely come in the LOCSEC and FLANKSEC roles. They are also great as indirect weapons carriers.

However, i strongly disagree that the LAV's are good for MOUT. Any Armored vehicle that can be gutted by an RPG-7 is hardly ideal for street fighting.
Just look at the LVTP-7A1's we lost, with heavy casualties.

Even the M-2/3 Bradleys are FAR more heavily armored than the LAV/Stryker designs, and Bradleys are what i would consider marginal for MOUT, imho.

Rumsfeld's 'transformation' plans call for the conversion of several of the Mechanized Brigades to convert to Stryker's(LAV III's), and two of the independent ACR regiments as well.

This would be a SERIOUS mistake IMHO, as we would be down to no more than a handful of true heavy divisions.
In other words, about what is in Iraq and Korea right now, plus the US 1st Cavalry Division would be about it for heavy Div's.

BAD idea bro.

"The rule to land warfare in the open desert is to rap allot of steel around it and move it very quickly."

That is a very good rule, and it applies just as much in MOUT, if not more.


"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"



Edited by - m21 sniper on Mar 29 2003 12:33 AM

[quote]

However, i strongly disagree that the LAV's are good for MOUT. Any Armored vehicle that can be gutted by an RPG-7 is hardly ideal for street fighting.
Just look at the LVTP-7A1's we lost, with heavy casualties.

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Main problem today is they keep building better RPGs or anti-tank systems. Taking out those Abrams with the Russian Coronet system was a big eye opener for the troops.

It's always tradeoffs with armor and the mission.

IMO, Abrams should swap in a diesel engine for it's next upgrade. It would really increase range and acceleration. Top end drops, but not often armor ever hits top end. It's often idling, waiting to do something.

Interesting book on armor, Death Traps, forget author but he was a salvage expert from D-Day onwards into Germany. M-4 tanks were equipped with surplus aircraft engines until they swapped in some V-8s. Those old radial engines hated to idle for long, fouled out plugs quick. US was one of the few countries to salvage equipment on the battlefield and get it back into the fight in WW2.

Marines are having a helluva of a time keeping their tracks running too.

Jack

"Main problem today is they keep building better RPGs or anti-tank systems. Taking out those Abrams with the Russian Coronet system was a big eye opener for the troops."

Remember, these are decade old M-1A1's that were DISABLED(they were not destroyed). The M-1A2 is better protected, and has far greater TC visibility.

"It's always tradeoffs with armor and the mission."

Sure is.

"IMO, Abrams should swap in a diesel engine for it's next upgrade. It would really increase range and acceleration."

Actually, at WOT the turbine is far more efficient. It is during idle that it eats fuel. The M-1A2 has an under armor APU that provides power at "idle" without having to run the turbine. The new M-1A2SEP takes into account the few weaknesses of the A1 and 'fixes' them.

"Top end drops, but not often armor ever hits top end."

Hey, they sure seemed to be hauling ass for the first 72 hours

The biggest advantadge of the M-1 is it's turbine... which is just QUIET. A diesel powered AFV can be heard for miles- a turbine powered M-1 can literally get within 300 yards before you hear it.

I like the M-1 just fine, but hopefully the lessons learned in the war will be applied to an M-1A3 future variant.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

[quote]
"

The biggest advantadge of the M-1 is it's turbine... which is just QUIET. A diesel powered AFV can be heard for miles- a turbine powered M-1 can literally get within 300 yards before you hear it.

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How big is the heat signature on a turbine?

Details!!!!

Jack

Wonder if they'll ever get that "forcefield" armor into service. Two light metal plates, powered by the vehicle's own batteries, RPG's or other shaped charge's copper jet goes through, makes a circuit, gets vaporized, superficial damage, only.

A sucking chest wound is life's way of telling you to slow down...

Jack.....

I am sure the EGT is classified, but the Abrams has been known to melt the paint off of the occasional BMW on the Autobahn

However, war being what it is...one can take advantadge of topographical variations in elevation to totally mask the IR signiture.

A Platoon of M-1's gets into a defiled valley, and they can swing around into your rear before you know what happened, because you don't hear them. I've seen it done.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

Edited by - m21 sniper on Mar 31 2003 01:11 AM

That is a very promising technology Horrido, i agree.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

Remember, this is the same tank design that withstood 3 point-blank sabot shots(from another Abrams), was brought to the repair shop, and then back in service.

Sniper is accurate when he says "disabled, not destroyed."

Other things: I hope that new armor in development can withstand large HEAT warheads (ie. HELLfire, Maverick types).



Edited by - Tritonal on Mar 31 2003 01:34 AM

Actually, one of them was destroyed.

I just got pix of the hit Abrams yesterday, and one is a burnt out hulk.
The other one looked pretty easily depot repairable though.



"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

All crew survived.
I've seen one as well, but I think it's the damaged one.
Can you post it?



Edited by - Tritonal on Mar 31 2003 11:09 AM

Here is a link....

http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/in ... 61999ba72f

http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/in ... 61999ba72f

http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/in ... 61999ba72f

One of them definitely looks like total a loss, one looks to be hit lightly, and the third looks like it might be salvagable.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

That's pretty painful for a die-hard Abrams fan like myself to watch but it's not as bad as this:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000283

[quote]
Actually, one of them was destroyed.

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Marines lost one, when a sniper nailed a driver and it kept going right into a river. All crew died. There losing other tracks to AT weapons too.

Jack

I heard that too last night.

Very old trick. I got six M-1's while operating as OPFOR in a span of ten minutes that way one time.
I told the story here before, some may remember it.

For a bit of good news, i can also report that our sniper teams have been very busy little beavers over there. In fact, one could say they are in their glory.

The conditions as they exist on the battlefield at the moment are perfect for sniping/countersniping.
Static lines, besieged city's, exposed LOCs, and relatively flat terrain are all good things from the sniper's perspective.

That is one nasty bit of business that is going on over there, this is nothing like ODS.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

[quote]
I heard that too last night.

Very old trick. I got six M-1's while operating as OPFOR in a span of ten minutes that way one time.
I told the story here before, some may remember it.

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I rest my case about this being an easy Op in Iraq. Some of you have flamed me about the Baghdad 500. I know LOCs and working in a desert.

I will use Col. David Hackworth as a data point. We used the Gulf War model for the War. Saddam adapted and use Nam tactics.

You can find Hack's comments at www.sftt.org

Tired grunts make bad mistakes. This is a big hint, the war planning isn't working to script.

Jack

The planned force without the 4th ID ready on G-day was inadequate with regard to force protection, there is no doubt about that.

Someone apparently forgot that when you blitz 150 miles into enemy territory in 3 days that you have gihugic flanks and LOC to protect.

FORTUNATELY, as soon as problems occured, the first thing the Pentagon did was to open the spigot of troops and tanks.

And by the way, our guys have fought extremely well in very bad circumstances or this would have been a LOT worse.

As it is, it was really no more than a mild embarrasment.
We needed to pause and consolidate anyway, and this gives the zoomies a chance to work over the RGFC forces REAL GOOD before we go in.

"I Am Infantry...Follow Me!!!"

[quote]
The planned force without the 4th ID ready on G-day was inadequate with regard to force protection, there is no doubt about that.

Someone apparently forgot that when you blitz 150 miles into enemy territory in 3 days that you have gihugic flanks and LOC to protect.

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I recall they went 230 odd miles in 40 hours. Then the el crapola hit the fan. Bothers me I read about fighting from Basra up to near Baghdad.

LOCs are basic. Yeah, they finally turned on the tap for support. Just hope we can project it fast enough and far enough. We pissed away too many billions in high tech crap and forget we need airlift and sealift.

Time will tell.

Jack