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Flight Test junkies might like this company propaganda article. I do.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives ... index.html


Mc/I + P/A

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????

Ive got a subscription......only wished it came out a little more often.

"face it....perhaps your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others!"

Propoganda or not, it's hard to argue one point the Colonel makes...

“I am thoroughly convinced this airplane is going to revolutionize the way we fight,” he says. “The F/A-22 will fundamentally change the way we approach air-to-air engagements. Nothing will be able to touch us for decades to come.”


"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Right, everything is BVR now.
AA is dead.
Fly over, drop bomb, fly home......boooring!<img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Please, someone tell me im wrong.

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

I supect the pilots wives and families wont mind it being "boring" in a real conflict.

But the point now is that the F/A-22 pilot CHOOSES of his/her own free will as to weather it's a BVR fight or not. Give me all the advantage I can find.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I supect the pilots wives and families wont mind it being "boring" in a real conflict.

But the point now is that the F/A-22 pilot CHOOSES of his/her own free will as to weather it's a BVR fight or not. Give me all the advantage I can find.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
No warriors or legends were ever made from firing a missle from long range then turning arund and going home.
So its your choice, do you want a land filled with warriors or one filled with people afraid to put a bullet in someones eye?

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>No warriors or legends were ever made from firing a missle from long range then turning arund and going home.
So its your choice, do you want a land filled with warriors or one filled with people afraid to put a bullet in someones eye?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That attitude is out of line on a couple of different levels:

First it is short sighted. When guns were first used effectively in warfare I bet a bunch of word slingers spouted off about how anyone toting a gun wasn't a true warrior and that they were now trying to fill their land with people afraid to put a knife or sword through someone's eye. There is a bit more to shooting missiles than most people think....

Second, and more importantly, TRUE warriors could give a rat's ass what people back home think. TRUE warriors are not out there proving to others that they are bad asses. They are out there for one purpose - to kill and destroy as many bad guys as possible in the most effective way possible. Any "warrior" who is out there motivated by looking brave or any other such horse!!!t instead of killing bad guys just to kill bad guys is an ASS and has no business in combat.

You get yourself out there on a many vs. many BVR ride in a modern fighter then come back and try to tell us about warriors...

Edited by - luke on May 24 2003 8:41 PM

Agreed, I hope to find out soon.

Also I didnt mean it as a "pissing match" type of thing. I agree if your out there to make headlines your not there for the right reason and will do more harm than good.

My point was that the people who we regard as warriors and the brave dont rely on staying safe in order to get something done.

I will still take hunting with a knife over a rifle any day though...

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

Cough Cough..uh when was the last time we went up against an air armada? Vietnam..and lets just ignore Mr Rodriguez and his 2 solo kills...back in the gulf and his little Serb Bitch slap over bosnia...

You ladies are living in the wrong decade...

The fact is..we carnage nations before Fighters get to Boogie.

Nobody has the Cojones to get in the air anymore or have the assets to do it..

What is China and North Korea going to throw up? None of their assets are capable enough to challenge our 70-90's era aircraft.

The only asset on the F/A 22 that will be utilised is its global battle management system... The Future of warfare is all in the ordnace technology.

The only Dogfight we are going to see is if Don king promoted it on Pay per View!

the point of REAL combat , is to win NOT look good doing it! I frequently get this "warrior" type crap from a certain person on my sim site, I think they still see themselves with a cigar and white scarf!! All weapons are designed to give the user and unfair advantage in combat, because the people who put thier butts in the seats and thier life on the line arnt (I hope) looking for TV cameras and movie deals!! Afraid of putting a bullett in someones eye? uh NO I dont think so, I suspect if all else fails they'll ram whatever plane they come across if that aircraft needs to go down, because they are professionals and believe in what they are doing and what they are fighting for!! I want them to kill at long range come home load up and do it all over agin all day every day until the fight is won!! I dont want a fair fight I want wholesale slaughter of our enemies(not the non-combatants) ASAP!!

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

I like the way we do it now.

Blow the enemy airfields to pieces before the other guys even know it's a shooting war.

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

Interesting theory. But what do you do when they start staging out of civilian airfields and the local highway? Then you're definetely gonna be blamed for shooting at civilians and civilian targets

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Ummm.....so?

"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

ROFLMAO


"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Good point.

"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The Future of warfare is all in the ordnace technology. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


That is EXACTLY how I feel...That's just one of the reasons this facet of the military interests me so much. The direct technology of killing your enemy will never go out of business.

Glad you're back good sir.

BTW-Your avatar rocks, how'd you accomplish that!?




Edited by - tritonal on May 27 2003 01:25 AM

Here is my problem with the whole "make it safer and easier" argument: UAAV

If you follow the logic, and the news, that is where we are going.
In 30-50 years there will be no more manned fighter or attack aircraft.

Is that what you want?

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

Edited by - AndrewK on May 26 2003 9:10 PM

if we win that way , then why not? And the final runs for the F-35 are supposed to be unmanned versions.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

Edited by - boomer on May 26 2003 9:16 PM

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

There is more to it than winning.

It is about creating roles and role models for future generations. Almost EVERYONE looks up to military pilots, and many people strive to make themselves better because of the naturally chivalrous, noble and patriotic symobls that military pilots stand as. Since the first days of flight and more importantly wartime flight the pilots were always looked up to as the cream of the crop, which they are. Not only do pilots have to be of stellar moral and ethical standards, but they must also be scholarly and in prime physical condition, exactly what this nation is based on and lives by. Very few strive to be basically video gamers piloting an intangiable plane from 100 miles away.

I dont really want to get off into my dicertation about how computer technology is slowly killing the original intent of humans but that is basically how I feel.

There is more to it than just "winning", at least to me.

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

Boomer....not only will we likely never see an F-35 UCAV, we will probably never see a production F-35 at all(at least not as it is currently envisioned).

The program has BIG problems ALREADY.

LOL, like being 20% overwieght, ALREADY.

The USMC version will probably be the first to fall.


"Trample the wounded...hurdle the dead"

AndrewK you been watching too many movies, good luck with all that.

Snipe, if your right, then a WHOLE LOT of people are in BIG trouble. We're gonna have to re-up the Harriers, Hornets, Falcons, Strike Eagles, and Eagles(just for attrition ). NONE of which are stealthy, but will have to operate in an increasingly unfriendly sky. I'm not sure if we have a counter to the SA-10/20 series(until JASSM gets straightened out), I suspect since it can shoot down a HARM from 20 miles away, that our cruise missles wont do much better unless they can get within the minimum before they lose terrain masking. F-22 (if it gets produced) is too expensive and has no internationals to share the cost. I HOPE they can get F-35 back on track since they were perfectly willing to throw stuff away in the program to keep costs reasonable, MAYBEE they can jettison enough 2 lb ideas to make a differance.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
AndrewK you been watching too many movies, good luck with all that.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Sorry, just how I have felt since I was a little kid.

I do however resent the implication that I am just some cloud headed idiot that only gets information from television.

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

<i>Okay, I'm not a pilot but I had to comment.</i>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>There is more to it than winning.

It is about creating roles and role models for future generations. Almost EVERYONE looks up to military pilots, and many people strive to make themselves better because of the naturally chivalrous, noble and patriotic symobls that military pilots stand as. Since the first days of flight and more importantly wartime flight the pilots were always looked up to as the cream of the crop, which they are. Not only do pilots have to be of stellar moral and ethical standards, but they must also be scholarly and in prime physical condition, exactly what this nation is based on and lives by. Very few strive to be basically video gamers piloting an intangiable plane from 100 miles away.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>Okay, period, end of discussion, the reason for warfare is to PROTECT AND DEFEND both our people, our country, and our interests, or to eliminate a threat to the same. The purpose of <b><u>increased technology</u></b> in <u>any</u> aspect of warfare is twofold: 1) to increase the effectiveness of that protection and defense, and 2) to lower (if not eliminate) the friendly casualty rates.

If we can send up a squadron of UAV's for either recon or tactical/strategic bombing missions and keep the human lives safe behind a monitor, so be it.

If a fighter with a human pilot gets shot down, the pilot runs the risk of injury, capture, or even death. However, if a UAV is shot down, the "desk pilot" simply plugs into another UAV, takes off, and goes to toast the bastard that shot down his other plane. He doesn't have to worry about "living to fly another day".

I'm all for the heroics behind dogfighting and strategic, surgical missions conducted by courageous men and women with nerves of steel, but if we can get to the point that we're running unmanned flights <i>just as</i> successful (if not more) as those flown with real pilots <u><b>AND</b></u> we eliminate the fatality factor, why not?

Unless you're the one going up against SAM and AAA sites, not to mention the rarity of engaging in a missile-lock gunfight in the skies, I suggest looking at this from a different perspective. Your purpose in a battle is to kill the other a**hole before he kills you, not get your picture in a book next to Clint Eastwood and John Wayne.

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin, 1759

No it isnt. If that were true then we would just wipe out terrorist and threatening nations with nucelar warfare.

I guess my point is deeper than just saving lives.

It has nothing to do with fame to please stop putting words in my mouth.
The continued pussification, to quote George calin, of America is what I am talking about. People so scared to die that they send up drones in their places...I cant really explain my position well enough to give a firm argument in this short of space, and I will just end up sounding like some testosterone driven macho "tough guy" if I try. So I will just leave that be and let you pummel me with your safety first doctrine.

<i>Integrity first-service before self-Excellence in all we do</i>

I think General George "Blood and Guts" Patton said it best:
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his"

If UAVs, UCAVs and drones means that the other poor bastard is the one dying for his country, I'm all for it. I have nothing against bravery, last stand, remember the Alamo, John Wayne attitudes, but when it comes to my furry little bottom, I'd much prefer if it was a machine up there, and not me. Not that I'm a coward, but a machine can be rebuilt, even if at a cost. Can you put a price tag on somebody?


"Retreat, hell! We just got here!"-Captain Lloyd Williams, 2nd Marine Division, Belleau Wood, France, WWI

Edited by - bigross86 on May 27 2003 1:37 PM