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“Your main point is well taken… But I disagree with your precept that we really don’t have anything to learn from the IAF. My simple point is that there is something to be gained from learning (through experience) how others do business, particularly the IAF.”

Bombing refugee camp? Maybe they could train the USMC on shooting little girls in the face.

“Can you document a case where Israel has sold our technologically to China? Do you really think that China poses a national security threat to us? I think they are enjoying favored nation trading status a little too much to do anything stupid."

Python 3 was sold and renamed the PL-8, Lavi design was sold and upgraded to become J-10, the bastards tried to sell the Phalcon to the Chinese as well. Hell the USA had to pay the bastards to get them too cancel the deal with China.

Plus I can mention LDPs and other stuff sold in the 1990s.

“I think the Isrealis are the only force(other than our own) that can give us a decent fight with decent equipment,”

The embargo and block aid, which would happen at the start, would starve the IDF in a few weeks.

"Heard lots of rumors of IAF pilots flying during GW 1"

No they did not. Unless they also failed on the scud hunt.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Bombing refugee camp? Maybe they could train the USMC on shooting little girls in the face.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Can you document that?

"Bombing refugee camp? Maybe they could train the USMC on shooting little girls in the face."


How about striking terrorists who want nothing more than to wipe Jews/Christians off the face of the earth? Israelis are targeting those who are killing their CIVILIANS. Ridiculous comments like the one mentioned above do not lead to intelligent debate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine." -- Junior Soviet Lieutenant

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>“I think the Isrealis are the only force(other than our own) that can give us a decent fight with decent equipment,”

The embargo and block aid, which would happen at the start, would starve the IDF in a few weeks.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

this is about exercises NOT war, I dont think we'd embargo the IDF for an exercise <rolling eyes>

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

hmmmm I dont believe they beat the argies with AMRAAM Snipe, Blue Vixen IS a nice multi-mode RADAR I wont argue that and with the clag they were frequently fighting in, it (along with the ship based RADAR)added to thier SA tremendously I'm sure.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

"How about striking terrorists who want nothing more than to wipe Jews/Christians off the face of the earth?"

So wait, HAMAS/Hezbollah kill Palestinian christians? Hell those are some of the few Christians in the area.

So please don't try to play to religon card in saying Christians and Jews are in it together agianist Muslims.

"essentially fighting the same enemy that we are fighting in OEF and OIF. But that would probally be way to cool to ever happen"

Is America trying to make life unlivable for the Iraqs or Afgans? No. Are there UN resolations telling the USA to leave Iraq? No.

Unless you mean the same enemy as in Mulsims.

"Israelis are targeting those who are killing their CIVILIANS."

Blah, yeh the USA has a lot to learn on shooting old men and killing 5 year olds with hellfires.

"Ridiculous comments like the one mentioned above do not lead to intelligent debate. You should be ashamed of yourself."

This topic on its face is dumb, when is the last time the IDF/AF fought a major air war what 1982? The USAF has nothing to leanr from them in air combat other then using LGBs on little kids. And what you think the USAF can't use the F-15 or F-16 seeing as those are the planes the IDF/AF uses.

The nations America should be doing more DACT with are Taiwan (Mirage 2000-5EI/DI, F-16A/B Block 20, F-CK-1A, F-5E), Egpyt (F-16C/D, Mirage 2000EM, Mirage 5SDE, J-7B, MiG-21MF, J-6) and Malaysia (MiG-29N, F/A-18D getting Su-30MKM). Those nations have something to other in DACT not flying with other F-15/16s.

But then agian you look at the OIF and relize we need to train more with the IDF we didn't kill too many civilians.

"hmmmm I dont believe they beat the argies with AMRAAM Snipe, Blue Vixen IS a nice multi-mode RADAR I wont argue that and with the clag they were frequently fighting in, it (along with the ship based RADAR)added to thier SA tremendously I'm sure."

Nope, the AIM-9P was the weapon of choice in that little war, and it performed quite well. At the time of the Faulklands, the Sea Harrier had the much less capable Blue Fox radar- i think. The FA-2 Sea Harrier embarks AMRAAM as it's primary A2A weapon.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Edited by - m21 sniper on Aug 28 2003 9:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So wait, HAMAS/Hezbollah kill Palestinian christians? Hell those are some of the few Christians in the area. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Again, can you doument this?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Blah, yeh the USA has a lot to learn on shooting old men and killing 5 year olds with hellfires. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

If it was their <i>intent</i> to kill Palestinian civilians as it <i>is</i> the intent of HAMAS to blow up Israeli school children, it would be in genocidal porportians; the population of Palestinians has actually risen.

You gotta explain yourself a little more.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The nations America should be doing more DACT with are Taiwan (Mirage 2000-5EI/DI, F-16A/B Block 20, F-CK-1A, F-5E), Egpyt (F-16C/D, Mirage 2000EM, Mirage 5SDE, J-7B, MiG-21MF, J-6) and Malaysia (MiG-29N, F/A-18D getting Su-30MKM). Those nations have something to other in DACT not flying with other F-15/16s.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Troung, don't we already practice with these AF's? It would be very interesting to see them train together with an SU-30KM.

I'll give you one thing: the IAF has not been in a major battle since 1982(unless there's one I'm not aware of); wonder how their "ready condition" is?









Edited by - Tritonal on Aug 28 2003 9:26 PM

If this topic is “on its face dumb,” why did you feel the need to chime in? Its intent was to create discussion/debate. So I guess to that end it was a success.

"Blah, yeh the USA has a lot to learn on shooting old men and killing 5 year olds with hellfires."

- 95% of all terrorist activity since 9/11 has been Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. And all Israeli attacks have been direct and responsible retaliations, on leadership targets.

"Unless you mean the same enemy as in Mulsims"

- If you haven’t noticed, Muslins are the ones vowing to kill us. And Militant Islam is the norm. Non-militant Islam is substandard. Its normal Islam compared to nominal Islam.
- Look at Mohammad, how in the world did he get his religion to dominate the Saudi Arabian peninsula IN HIS OWN LIFETIME? He fought. Islam has been one big religious war since its inception. And those not fighting are contradicting the established pattern of their faith. This is a religion that not only survives warfare, it thrives on it, and, one could argue, it lives because of it.






"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine." -- Junior Soviet Lieutenant

"Non-militant Islam is substandard. Its normal Islam compared to nominal Islam."

huh?

Wow I have dated two Indonesian muslims, niether one of them ever once talked about attacking the west. I think your a dumbass.

"95% of all terrorist activity since 9/11 has been Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. And all Israeli attacks have been direct and responsible retaliations, on leadership targets."

It's much different then the 9-11 attacks. Bin Laden a company kill Westerns for a different goal then the HAMAS. HAMAS wants the jews to leave Palestine, Bin Laden and his merry bunch of fags are looking to take control of parts of the muslim world by using the USA/West as a scapgoat for problems in the area. And if all muslims wanted to kill Americans a lot more Americans would be dead if you catch what I'm saying.

The differnce bewteen whats going on in Iraq and Palestine is the fact that the USA took out Saddam and people want to fill that power vacuum by removing the USA and in Palestine the poeple want thier freedom. The only thing in common is that one of the groups on each conflict has a lot of muslims. And please don't forget that there are Christian Iraqis and Palestinians.


"Look at Mohammad, how in the world did he get his religion to dominate the Saudi Arabian peninsula IN HIS OWN LIFETIME? He fought. Islam has been one big religious war since its inception. And those not fighting are contradicting the established pattern of their faith. This is a religion that not only survives warfare, it thrives on it, and, one could argue, it lives because of it."

I'm not Christian, Jew or Muslim, but you ever read the bible? Or heard of the Crusades? Enough said......

"Troung, don't we already practice with these AF's? It would be very interesting to see them train together with an SU-30KM."

Only really with thier American equipment. Training with Malay MiG-29Ns would provide much more advanced training as compared to the Gemran MiG-29As as the MiG-29N is more advanced and has better weapons and avoinics. And training agianist the Mirage 2000-5 woudl be helpful as you never know when the USAF will have to tangle with the Mirage 2000-5. The Su-30MKM should be around in a few years and will be among the best Flankers out there. It's a lot better then training agianist other F-16s.

ummm... Mightymouse, troung,... you both need to be a little more intellegent in you conversastions. techincal crap is good, crap crap is bad. ok let's kindergraden this for you, if you say bad things about israil, like "they kill innocensent people", it hurt the Israilise. when you say untrue things like "islam is a religion of war" it hurts the musliums. SO CUT IT OUT!

semper gumby

My take on the question is that the AF doesn't really need to go to Israeli to get training because the AF probably has an outstanding training program now. Any way how much training do you need to do to attack terrorist? Just need to know how to put a bomb on a house in the middle of a goat field. It’s the intelligence people who need special training. As for doing excises with Israeli and other countries: I thought we did that. I've seen footage of A-10 dog fighting tornadoes. We can use our own F-16 too. There seems to be a good bit to me.

semper gumby

we're doing away with a LOT of our dedicated training units, even some private commercial ventures are out there trying to take up the slack.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
<img src="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/atengun2X.GIF" border=0>

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

"heard of the Crusades? Enough said......"
Why were the Crusades fought? (Not that I'm a fan of the Crusades, it was a very dumb idea). But you have to realize that the entire purpose was to RECAPTURE land taken by Muslims. So no, I don’t think that simply mentioning the Crusades is “enough said”.


"crap is good, crap crap is bad."

Flyboy, I agree %100. This is getting lame... and repetitive. Thanks for the voice of moderation.


"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine." -- Junior Soviet Lieutenant

You gunning for my job Flyboy?


"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

umm, might mouse I was talking to you too in that post.

sniper, hell no! to much reading for me!

semper gumby