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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 03:36 
Hawg166 sent me this, and it was pretty good, so up it goes on the board.


Inside The Pentagon
February 19, 2004
Pg. 1

Air Force Unveils Fresh Commitment To Supporting Ground Troops


ORLANDO, FL -- In perhaps their most striking departure yet from decades of lagging enthusiasm for supporting ground troops, Air Force leaders last week offered impassioned pledges and unveiled new funding initiatives aimed at bolstering land warriors.

Air Combat Command chief Gen. Hal Hornburg, under direction from the Air Force secretary and chief of staff, is studying how to extend service life for much of the A-10 fleet, the workhorse aircraft dedicated to close air support (CAS) for ground forces. The A-10 Warthogs likely will receive new and more powerful engines as part of a larger “bridging” strategy to ensure existing aircraft will remain usable longer, given a recent slip in the schedule to introduce the new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) into the fleet.

The new A-10 initiative follows an interservice dust-up last summer in which critics alleged Hornburg’s staff was studying ways to retire A-10s early (Inside the Pentagon, June 5, 2003, p1).

“We’ve got to keep the A-10s on line until that JSF delivers,” Gen. Gregory Martin, head of Air Force Materiel Command, said in a Feb. 12 interview with ITP.

Air Force leaders are now making a virtue out of necessity, going well beyond the practicalities of mitigating the JSF setback to reach out to the land component in new ways.

“We believe it is important that our land forces see us demonstrate our obvious commitment to air-to-ground support, both deep interdiction and close air support,” Air Force Secretary James Roche said in a Feb. 12 speech to an Air Force Association symposium here. “We intend to be fully integrated with them, whether they are SOF [special operations forces], Army, Marines or coalition land forces. With this strategy, we will solidify our goal of developing evolving joint air-to-ground doctrine, tactics, techniques and procedures.”

In his own speech a few minutes later, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper said the air and land components had done a poor job of coordinating before a major battle in Afghanistan in early 2002, Operation Anaconda (ITP, Oct. 3, 2002, p1). In meetings he initiated later that year with his Army counterpart, the two leaders realized they needed to “make sure that we understand clearly the way [the] other goes to war,” Jumper said.

He said generations of Army officers exercising at the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin, CA, had watched Air Force jets fly overhead from nearby Nellis Air Force Base, NV, but had little idea what air power offered.

“Because [Army leaders] wanted to make sure that the ratios between the opposing forces on the ground . . . and maneuver elements of the Army units being tested were in the right ratio, air power was never allowed to have an effect on the opposing force,” Jumper said. “So generations of Army officers, what they learned was that they can look up and see the airplanes but they never did anything good for them.

“We’re going to fix that,” Jumper vowed. “We’re going to exercise our air and ground together in ways that assure that our Army leaders understand, they know, what air and space power can do for them.”

“We want to make sure that the Army and other land forces know that we feel very responsible . . . for making sure that we’re doing everything we can to make them successful,” Martin said in last week’s interview.

The Air Force recently decided to buy the Marine Corps’ short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing (STOVL) version of JSF, in addition to its earlier planned fleet of conventional JSFs. Martin said the new version will be particularly useful in support of ground forces, given it would be able to access smaller airfields closer to the ground fight.

Roche said his service would work with Congress to add a buy of the STOVL variant, stressing the growing importance of “short-takeoff-and-landing” capability. “These aircraft will be as special to our ground force colleagues as are the A-10s today,” Roche said.

Although the quantities and timing of this procurement -- like the A-10 modernization -- are subject to Hornburg’s bridging force study, Martin said his service has assumed JSF would first replace the F-16 fleet, before retiring the Warthogs. Hornburg expects to complete his study by July or August, in time to include its recommendations in the Pentagon’s fiscal year 2006 budget plans.

Hornburg told reporters Feb. 12 some have proposed using the Warthog modernization program to “create an A-10 on steroids.” Improvements may give some of the A-10 new avionics, better datalinks, greater precision weapons capability and new engines, he said. An initial effort to boost A-10 capabilities was unveiled in 2000 (ITP, Nov. 9, 2000, p1).

A new engine would likely use an off-the-shelf core, aimed at giving the A-10 a higher thrust-to-weight ratio, Martin said. More powerful engines would lend the A-10 “better performance in some of the areas that were [lacking] -- high-altitude [flight], heat, and heavy weapons loads,” Martin said. “I don’t think that you’ll get much speed out of it, but you’ll get more efficiency in its engines, more thrust. Which means you have better maneuvering potential against threats.”

In his speech, Roche highlighted close air support as a mission area receiving his special attention lately.

“Our airmen on the ground have been the key to many of the combat successes we’ve witnessed in Afghanistan and in Iraq,” Roche said. “Through their eyes-on-the-target assessments, they provide one of America’s significant asymmetric capabilities, and dramatically increase the effectiveness of our support to land forces.”

He noted that through the Air Force’s 2-year-old Battlefield Airman project, the service had reduced the weight of the ground controller’s standard 160-pound kit by half. The Air Force has also replaced much of the outdated equipment these forces use to help guide pilots’ munitions to ground targets, he said.

The new gear uses “machine-to-machine” communications that “reduce the time it takes to link sensors to shooters by 40 percent,” Roche said. “And we will equip these airmen with gear for every environment in extreme.

“We are investing in man-portable, tactical [unmanned aerial vehicles] to extend their sphere of influence and greatly increase their situational awareness,” he continued. “We are committed to providing them with power sources which last far longer and are significantly lighter.”

Roche said he and Jumper also envision “a near-term future where these combat controllers can designate a target precisely up to 10 kilometers away, automatically communicate those precise target coordinates to one of our aircraft, and receive expected time of weapons arrival in a confirmation message.”

This “focused investment, these new approaches and newer ways of thinking will enable us to produce a set of capabilities that will expand our Air Force portfolio of military advantages,” Roche said.

He also paid tribute to the A-10 in ways only rarely heard over the years from Air Force leaders. In contrast, the aircraft has been universally popular in the Army, where its ability to fly low and slow allows pilots to clearly visualize the enemy, distinguish adversary from friendly forces, and use a powerful 30 mm gun to hit both moving and static targets.

“Our A-10 fleet has served us well,” Roche said. “Our ground forces appreciate its capabilities and the airmen who bring these capabilities to their fight. Its ability to be based in proximity to land forces in battle, often in unimproved circumstances, its resistance to FOD [foreign object debris], its robust self-protection, and the skill of the airmen who fly it close to their ground colleagues in direct support of firefights are good reasons why this capability is appreciated.

“It is right, then, for us to commit to the near-term improvement of a portion of this fleet and to evolve this mission area over time,” he continued. “So we will call from the A-10 force some number -- yet to be determined -- of aircraft in the best condition for sensor system upgrades, re-engining and service life extension, to bridge the force to the new F-35 close air support fleet.”

Roche also touted the F/A-22 Raptor’s potential contribution to land forces.

“The F/A-22 will serve to support distributed ground forces deep in enemy territory. [It will also] assure air dominance, attacks against moving targets, as well as cruise missile defense -- all critically important to ground operations,” he said.

Hornburg was also asked to study options for long-range strike, which may include an F/B-22 -- a stretch version of the service’s top-priority Raptor aircraft.

Martin said the Air Force’s renewed commitment to ground forces “should have come through clear in the close air support [initiatives], clear in the Battlefield Airman [project], and clear in the capability discussion about long-range strike.”

Given the possibility of additional schedule slips in introducing F/A-22 into service as well, Hornburg also plans to retrofit older F-16s and F-15Es with new radars, and convert some F-15Cs into strike versions. Designed principally for the air-to-air mission, the F-15C will also receive a better central computer and radar improvements to update its capabilities, Hornburg said in a Feb. 12 roundtable with reporters.

The ACC chief would not rule out the possibility that additional procurement of F-16s or F-15Es may be necessary if there are further delays to the F-35 or F/A-22. But Hornburg said he hopes not to have to implement any such contingency plans.

-- Elaine M. Grossman


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 03:54 
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saw this yesterday....guess time will tell.....

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 05:31 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Which means you have better maneuvering potential against threats.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>It already turns on a dime...guess they want change back too! <img src=newicons/idea.gif border=0 align=middle> Now we know what the that 2nd 'A' means;
A-10A(fghanistan)

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 06:18 
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i wonder if they'll ever do a fly off between the 2 when the JSF comes out?


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 09:23 
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Especially if they perform an "engine out" drill!<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 09:48 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Especially if they perform an "engine out" drill! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Yeah, you ever seen a falling refridgerator?!<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

Seriously though, its an encouraging article, confirming what pilots, maintainers and even the Hogs many fans worldwide already know......that the Hog is one of the most important players on the battlefield today.<img src=newicons/icon_hog.gif border=0 align=middle>


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 09:49 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
A new engine would likely use an off-the-shelf core, aimed at giving the A-10 a higher thrust-to-weight ratio, Martin said. More powerful engines would lend the A-10 “better performance in some of the areas that were [lacking] -- high-altitude [flight], heat, and heavy weapons loads,” Martin said. “I don’t think that you’ll get much speed out of it, but you’ll get more efficiency in its engines, more thrust. Which means you have better maneuvering potential against threats.”<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Engine candidates anyone?
Sea Level Static Thrust say 10000-12000 lbs
Weight say 1500-1800 lbs

GE F404
GE F414
PW F100
RR RB199

All these are in the zone, but they all have the disadvantage of high fuel flows (25-50% more). This means that two pylon stations will be needed for tanks on every mission. You don't ever get something for nothing. The take off gross weight will go up if you want to carry the same weapons just as far. So much for getting dramatically better hot and high performance. It would be a heck of a lot better at constant weight though. G'bye to long loiter time too. Hornburg is correct to write off any speed increase. The A-10 wings are too thick and they have permanent built-in camber (full time flaps) that make speeds higher than 450 knots almost impossible. More thrust would make tighter turns possible (at constant weight), if that is useful. It's a bunch of tradeoffs that were done in the late 60's and defined the AX program to be what the A-10 is.





Edited by - a10stress on Feb 24 2004 09:27 AM

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 10:00 
I think there's a commercial version of the A-10s current engines that makes about 15% more thrust.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 10:45 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think there's a commercial version of the A-10s current engines that makes about 15% more thrust.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Yes, I see that one (the CF34-8) but it is 1000 lbs heavier because it is much bigger. You might have to put ballast in the nose for that one. Maybe you could move the engine forward to compensate as long as a new nacelle is needed anyway. I don't remember if the forward nacelle support frame is good for a load increase like that, but you're probably right. That is what they are thinking. The CF34-8 has about 50% more rated thrust (14k vs 9k lbs). It would be a good overall match. I'd like to work that job. It would be deja-vu all over again. The first component I worked on out of school was the A-10 nacelles.



Edited by - a10stress on Feb 24 2004 11:38 AM

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 12:52 
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You guys may be over-looking another option...changing internal engine components on the TF-34A (IE LPTs/HPTs burnner cans) to increase thrust by a few thosand pounds and side-step a lot of the "new engine" issues.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 13:17 
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Dice I had heard that the engines would be downgraded in thrust for the express purpose of saving on HPT hot times. Since you obviously always know more than you let on (we understand that you have to), what is your opinion on what they will do if they actually hang a new engine.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 16:21 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dice I had heard that the engines would be downgraded in thrust for the express purpose of saving on HPT hot times. Since you obviously always know more than you let on (we understand that you have to), what is your opinion on what they will do if they actually hang a new engine.

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Hawg166 not sure what you are asking, if they are going to re-engine the A-10 or, if they do which engine will they use??

The basic answer to both questions is......it's all up in the air right now and nobody knows. All options are being looked at along with how much it will/would cost and which option would give the A-10 and the USAF the biggest "bang for it's buck"!


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 17:43 
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In 1987, I wrote a paper advocating installation of the F404 (dry) on the Hog. The biggest positive aspect was improved performance (sustained 5.5 g turn with a combat load and the ability to do 450 KIAS in level flight), the biggest detriment was fuel flow (about twice what we use now at a combat power setting). My suggestion was to develop a combat fuel tank to go along with the new motors. At that time, the price was about $4.5M for 200 aircraft plus spares.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 18:02 
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I was under the impression that the new engines, although capable of more power, would be derated and develop only another thousand pounds of thrust. The reason for the new engines is not necessarily power but to avoid the costs associated with having to pull the engines for hot section time. The engine develops the same power as the TF34 while governed to only 85% of available power. This way you never run into hot section high times.
On another note A10 Stress wrote a great piece here last year about the problems with just slinging a new engine on the aircraft. I wish it hadnt disappeared into cyber space.

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2004, 18:14 
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LOL im sure Snipe and Booms has it printed bound and filed away somewhere. they are good book keepers, lol

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You guys may be over-looking another option...changing internal engine components on the TF-34A (IE LPTs/HPTs burnner cans) to increase thrust by a few thosand pounds and side-step a lot of the "new engine" issues.

HMFIC
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Doesn't the Navy TF-34, the -400A version, do something like that? You can always spin it faster and run it hotter, up to a point, but eventually you just need to move more air to get the job done (there is no substitute for cubic inches, is there big block fans?) The -100 was intentionally downgraded to be cheaper and more reliable, wasn't it? It would be great if they could tweak the components with modern technology, but I'm thinkin' 5-7% thrust increase is what's available with that approach. If it's more than 10% it would be interesting. I'm kind of rusty on the terminology but the goal of this approach is to get more thrust out of moving the same amount of air, more specific thrust. That insinuates higher pressures and temperatures inside, higher exhaust velocities, i.e. different themodynamics. Unless GE has been working this problem for years, it would take a depressing amount of time for a flight qualified engine to arrive, maybe more time than the A-10 has left. I guess that's why I was only looking at off-the-shelf engines. Even then, there are some annoyances. For instance, even though the F404 is a front runner, it is set up now for AMADS (Airframe mounted accessory drives) and somehow the accessories (gens, hyd pumps, oil pumps etc.) would have to be accommodated some other way in the A-10. Coach can probably talk about that, too. It is going to take someone with a lot of clout to champion a re-engined A-10. So far, that champion has not surfaced. How about it HMFIC? A man of your persuasive power and influence could be useful here. It's a good thing the A-9 wasn't selected the winner of the AX competition. Imagine the complaints that would come from trying to make-do with 7500 lbs of thrust per engine

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2004, 12:02 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> LOL im sure Snipe and Booms has it printed bound and filed away somewhere. they are good book keepers, lol<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

lol ME? nah, I'm a good finder but a lousy keeper. My organization skills are diametricly opposite of my research skills lol. I DOOO remember seeing that post though.

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