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As I research nose and door art some questions come to mind that I would like your opinions on. I believe we have a good sampling of ranks and AFSCs here so I can gets views from all sides of this issue.
I guess my main question is what is your opinion of nose and ladder door art and how it‘s handled in the AF today? This is not as simple as it may seem because as I look into this subject the more complicated and diluted it becomes.

First just what is nose art? If I remember correctly the regs states (paraphrasing here) it’s any “non-standard” marking applied to the exterior of the aircraft. Pretty broad statement and one which causes some interpretation problems.

We all know Pope has a “waver” to carry the sharks teeth and the AF considers ladder door art as nose art even if it‘s hidden during flight. The last time I looked I could not find the ACC supplement (which I heard existed ) that bans ladder door art on ACC aircraft. We also know that the Guard, Reserves, PACAF, and USAFE do not fall under this ACC supplement and carry door art and what I consider nose art also in the form of a panther for Spang and a stallion for Osan. I also understand Spang jets are having the panther removed from their engine nacelles because this is considered as nose art by the current commander.

So, What is nose art and in your opinion does ladder door art fall into this category? Should all units be able to paint their doors and should the regs covering nose art be rewritten to better define just what is nose art? How do you non-Crew Chiefs (weapons/specs) feel about the CCs being able to paint their doors?

Just a few questions to get the discussion started…..




<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>

IMO, in he same way that rampant political correctness has put the kabosh on many military things, it's done the same with nose art. Like you said, ACC doesn't allow nose art, and nose art is limited (ie- must be clean) on aircraft overseas. I personally appreciate the effort and talent that goes into making nose art, I think it should be completely allowed. Even worse than ACCs feelings on nose art, I hate how, for example, during Desert Storm, where nose art was applied, then ordered to be removed after the planes returned to CONUS. Here these planes had history painted on them! Not just nose art, but mission markers, etc. But hey, let's completely erase all that history when they return. I'm surprised that ACC allowed a "Let's Roll" plane in each wing, too bad that's what it takes to retain some form of nose art.

Some of the best nose art I ever saw was on -52s in the old SAC.

I agree with Type 7. I love nose art and really wish those in power would let us keep it.

Fender
"A woman drove me to drink
and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her".
W.C. Fields

I agree PC has had a lot to do with it being baned in ACC which is a shame. I would love to see Pope and DM be allowed to do door art like all the other A-10 units, just doesn't seem fair to me that they are the only ones who can't have their art.

<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>

Well, it looks like the Cajuns tagged all the ladder doors of the other jets at hawgsmoke. You can see in a pic from the Hawgsmoke 04 thread http://www.philippecolin.net./images/H0221.jpg Does that count as door art? hahaha. Seriously, I agree that it is a bunch of BS that door art is not allowed. However, I'd rather it be permitted in some units (PACAF, USAFE....) than no units. The teeth on the jets at Pope give them (the jets) personality, because even though they were all the same, each one was a touch different, and you can tell the jets apart by looking at the teeth. Ladder doors give the jet a bit of personality, for lack of a better word. And if a jet gets mission markers or the liek painted on while deployed, by all means that should stay on it. I don't think you'll find anyone in this entire forum who agrees with the no door art policy.

Crew Chiefs make it happen..... PIL SUNG!

Edited by - jackb on Jun 07 2004 1:15 PM

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just doesn't seem fair to me that they are the only ones who can't have their art.
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Hogpen, let me start by saying fair, no one ever said the AF was fair. Heck a wise man (call sign Dice) once told me that we in the military are here to defend democracy, not practice it. LOL.

For your first question, I did a little research on the internet and came up with what I feel is a good definition. “Nose art is the painting of a motif or personal icon on an aircraft” (http://www.iainwilliams.anycities.com/nose%20art.htm). Now I don’t think that’s the Air Forces official viewpoint on nose art but by using this definition I would have to say, Yes ladder door art is classified as nose art.

As for the ACC outlook on ladder door/nose art, I would have to do some research once I get back from leave. I do know that when I arrived at Pope in 2000 they were about to lose the Sharks teeth and had to scramble around to find and submit letters to enable them to keep them. Additionally the only other nose art that I know that is officially sanctioned by ACC is the “Let’s Roll” 9/11 nose art.

I do feel that it’s a shame that the ACC will not allow nose art. It’s been part of the Air Force heritage for some time. I know I’ve seen some pictures of WWI vintage aircraft with nose art (http://biomicro.sdstate.edu/pederses/NOSEART.html) and I guess it really gained popularity during WW II, Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf Wars. I have to agree with jackb (Oh god did I say that), when he said that it gives an aircraft personality. It also gives the aircrew/maintainers a little pride in ownership. I know people who spent major bucks (out of pocket) to personalize their doors and when they did they took even better care of it, if for no other reason, because it was now “Their” aircraft. With those factors alone, I’d have to say yes we should be allowed to have door art. However, unfortunately the Air Force has to look at things on a larger scale. How can you allow one aircraft to have nose art and not another? Additionally Type 7 brought up and a valid point with the PC issue. With the way people are today, anything you put on an aircraft can (and probably will) be considered offensive by somone.

In closeting let me just say that while I love and appreciate nose art maybe we’re better off with they way the policy currently is. When aircraft deploy to combat operations, they typically receive their “war paint” and when they return home, it’s removed. IMHO, this helps maintain the mystic of nose art and peeks our interest in the subject.

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You can run but why die tired.
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Faugh ah Ballaugh ~ Clear the Way

Related to the topic:

1. What do people like better?

a. Pope's shark teeth.
b. Barksdale's Hog snouts.

2. Anyone remember when the 130s at Pope wore sharkmouths?

3. I remember seeing F-4Es of the 3rd TFW at Clark AB wearing sharkmouths before it's closure. I thought the Pope Wing was the only ones authorized for this. Or was it different since they were PACAF?

Some of the best nose art I saw were on SAC KC-135s, both active and ANG, during Desert Storm. Them and SACs B-1 and B-52 nose art were some real good ones.

Related to noseart, let's talk paintjobs. I personally prefer the Hog in the Euro I paint scheme rather than in the grey that all the planes seem to be picking up. Some other sharp paint schemes are HH-60s in desert camo. Anyone remember the "A-16" with the F-16 painted up in the Euro I scheme? For F-16s, I thought the red/white/blue scheme of the original YF-16 was pretty sharp. Anyone remember (in the way back machine here) when MAC painted their C-5s and C-141s in the grey bottom/white top paint scheme? Supposedly, the C-141B that picked up the POWs from Hanoi in 1973, dubbed "Hanoi Taxi", was repainted in this scheme and is replete with nose art, as well as lots of memoribilia in the cabin commemorating the event. Last I heard it's still flying with the reserve wing at Wright Pat, and recently returned to Hanoi to pick up some sets of US servicemen remains from the war.



Edited by - type 7 on Jun 07 2004 11:41 PM

1. I love the sharks teeth because of the historical value, but I feel that on a Hog, the tusks are killer.

2. Yes, I remember the 130’s with Sharks teeth, next to the F-16 it had to be the ugliest thing I have ever seen.

3. I’ll leave this one for Hogpen to answer since he was stationed there during that time.

From a maintainer’s viewpoint, I preferred the days of the green camo. It was a hell of a lot easier to keep an aircraft clean. As for the F-16, I love it painted in the Sky blue like the aggressors out at Vegas.


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You can run but why die tired.
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_________________


Faugh ah Ballaugh ~ Clear the Way

I'd personally love to see some good door art. Especially since the the gear door is not "external markings" It gear door is internal to the aircraft IMHO and should be allowed. It also shows what Crew Dawgs give a damn about their aircraft and shows some pride in the jet and the profesion of arms. The only place I understand a no door art rule would be on a demo team. But, being at a ACC base its all about appearance so no art. (Personaly I think it makes the other airframe's maintainers jealous.)

Specs Make Better Lovers

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I'd personally love to see some good door art. Especially since the the gear door is not "external markings" It gear door is internal to the aircraft IMHO and should be allowed. It also shows what Crew Dawgs give a damn about their aircraft and shows some pride in the jet and the profesion of arms. The only place I understand a no door art rule would be on a demo team. But, being at a ACC base its all about appearance so no art. (Personaly I think it makes the other airframe's maintainers jealous.)

Specs Make Better Lovers
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Gear door art????? We are talking about the ladder door...anyways...

1. I agree with Lil Hitler, shark teeth look good, especially on the old England jets (popes do to...don't get me wrong, just on the green were killer) BUT, I love the hogs teeth, just fit the old girl better since she is a "warthog"

2. Saw pictures...made me wanna puke...

3. WAY before my time......<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I prefer the old euro I paint...when I was stationed at Osan my jet was green....it was great (except hot summer days). It was a MILLION times easier to keep my jet clean compaired to when I was a DCC on the gray jets.....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Anyone remember (in the way back machine here) when MAC painted their C-5s and C-141s in the grey bottom/white top paint scheme? Supposedly, the C-141B that picked up the POWs from Hanoi in 1973, dubbed "Hanoi Taxi", was repainted in this scheme and is replete with nose art, as well as lots of memoribilia in the cabin commemorating the event. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

She was here at Robins last year for Depot....they did paint her the old scheme & had a big presentation when it finished PDM before she left...here link to the story...http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=100702201


<img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/70th.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/Mav_shot.jpg" border=0><img src="http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v70/prkiii/25.jpg" border=0>

_________________

ROFL, Hitler my own words coming back to haunt me! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

1. I like the BD hog face best because it does represent the "Warthog" better IMHO but, I also like the sharks teeth because of its historical background.

2. Green or gray...have to be a toss-up for me.

3. The 3rd TFW (Clark's host wing) also had ties to the WWII Flying Tigers but, I would have to look back into my stuff to get the whole stroy.

Hitler brings up a point which I agree with and that is the fact that because nose art is a war time effort it does give it a mystic. I also belive door art is not nose art and should be allowed for moral purposes.

<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>a point which I agree with and that is the fact that because nose art is a war time effort it does give it a mystic. I also belive door art is not nose art and should be allowed for moral purposes<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I don't fly 'em or fix 'em, but I do appreciate 'em!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> And I agree with LH and HP13.<img src=newicons/bounce.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

I sure did say gear door didn't I. Shit, I did mean the ladder door. Oh well, I still think that LADDER DOOR ART should be allowed and encouraged.

Specs Make Better Lovers

Maybe they'd agree to just ladder art?!

"Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

ROFL, I hope so

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Maybe they'd agree to just ladder art?!

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The thing with that Boomer someone would have to engage HQ and make a case for door art only and, if you say anything about the other units having door art it might backfire and everyone could lose the ability. This could be one of those cases where by saying anything you cound endanger the very thing you're trying to promote!

<img src="http://www.warthogpen.com/bs/sig1.jpg" border=0>

1 - you guys are crazy, the shark teeth look way better. Maybe if the hogs teeth was colored, and not just the outline..... maybe then. I dont rememebr how they were made at BD, but the reserve unit we relieved in the desert put them on, and they were made of the same material the CC's names are made of, like a sticker. Just a black outline. They loved it, but I'm not the most unbiased person youll meet on this topic. Hell, look at my avatar, that's my baby, 141.

2 - 130's with teeth, I've seen pictures, good god, what where they thinking. But it did look even worse on the F-16.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Some other sharp paint schemes are HH-60s in desert camo<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Hell yeah. Take a look in the Grouchy Media video Die Terrorist Die, at just past the 1 minute mark one of the coolest paint jobs ever. http://www.grouchymedia.com

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Heck a wise man (call sign Dice) once told me that we in the military are here to defend democracy, not practice it. LOL.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Hitler, I've heard you say that before, and to think, all this time I thought it was an original. Now I have to ask, is the whole "I'll play your silly little game, what is/where is/how do/....." thing yours, or did you steal that too? As for agreeing with me, that's one of the first signs of senility. Or is it sensibility? hahaha





Crew Chiefs make it happen..... PIL SUNG!

Edited by - jackb on Jun 08 2004 2:55 PM

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Hitler, I've heard you say that before, and to think, all this time I thought it was an original. Now I have to ask, is the whole "I'll play your silly little game, what is/where is/how do/....." thing yours, or did you steal that too? As for agreeing with me, that's one of the first signs of senility. Or is it sensibility? hahaha<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

First off, let me say that as you progress through your military career you will encounter some really great supervisors. You try to learn all you can from them and as you do you have a tendency emulate them <img src=newicons/Whatever_anim.gif border=0 align=middle>. That's what happened with both of those phrases. I have never said that I originated them, but the fact remains they make sense and the later of the two has taught YOU a lot since you’ve been in. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>


Secondly, I threw you out a compliment and the best you could come up with, senility! I guess the shock <img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> of it all got the best of you because I was expecting a much better response than that. <img src=newicons/anim_bannana.gif border=0 align=middle>



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe they'd agree to just ladder art?!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I wish that was the case, but not all aircraft have ladder doors and the powers that be would never let just one aircraft have it and not the other. Heck, if the story I heard was true, that’s how we lost the door art in the first place.

====
You can run but why die tired.
============================

_________________


Faugh ah Ballaugh ~ Clear the Way

Great nose-arts appeared on KC-135s, B-52s, FB-111s and other 'C-135s serving in SAC in the mid-eighties and nineties. Nose-arts were good for 'Esprit de corps' and was a great way for ground crews to take pride in the aircraft they were crewing. The same way ground crews put mission marks on their jet! Like bombs, missiles, refueling missions marks. There's a relation between the crew chief and the aircraft he's taking care of. Many crew chiefs see their jets as their 'baby' and are quite pride of their mission rate and avaibility to accomplish the mission.
I've spoken to many C/C in different units and I must tell you these guys are proud of their Hogs.
The FB-111A used to carry some pretty nice nose-arts and door-arts until one day some women found that offensive to the gender and the politicians got involved. Results= they were removed! More infos can be found on FB-111A.net

Beside nosearts and ladder door art, anyone noticed a recent program in which units give names of twon and cities to their aircraft. Best examples are the 131st FS/MA ANG and 303rd FS/AFRC! In addition to those squadrons, the 109th AW does the same in Schenectady, NY. I guess this is another way to promote 'Esprit de corps' in the unit. The important thing to remember is that the Wing commander is the one who needs to believe in it and support his maintenance troop!

Go Guard!

Philippe.

<img src=newicons/smiley_salute.gif border=0 align=middle>





Edited by - mephisto on Jun 09 2004 6:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The thing with that Boomer someone would have to engage HQ ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Um, that was me, Dice, not Boomer.<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

And I meant ladder art, not ladder <i>door</i> art! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Maybe something small and tasteless on the center column! Something their myoptic vision couldn't see.<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Live every day like it's the last, 'cause one day you're gonna be right!" Ray Charles

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Beside nosearts and ladder door art, anyone noticed a recent program in which units give names of twon and cities to their aircraft. Best examples are the 131st FS/MA ANG and 172nd FS/MI ANG! In addition to those squadrons, the 109th AW does the same in Schenectady, NY. I guess this is another way to promote 'Esprit de corps' in the unit. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I can't speak for others, but I wouldnt be too thrilled about crewing "The Spirit of Spring Lake/The Spirit of Songtan"

Crew Chiefs make it happen..... PIL SUNG!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Beside nosearts and ladder door art, anyone noticed a recent program in which units give names of twon and cities to their aircraft. Best examples are the 131st FS/MA ANG and 172nd FS/MI ANG! In addition to those squadrons, the 109th AW does the same in Schenectady, NY. I guess this is another way to promote 'Esprit de corps' in the unit. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I can't speak for others, but I wouldnt be too thrilled about crewing "The Spirit of Spring Lake/The Spirit of Songtan"

Crew Chiefs make it happen..... PIL SUNG!
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This program is only for the Guard and Reserve and helps recognize the support of the neighbouring communities. With most of the unit members from these communities, it creates ties between them. Look at the B-2s "Spirit of....", etc...

I hope ladder door will remain for years to come! Long live the Hog!

Philippe.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

personally I think MsPeak screwed it all up! This is when all the contraversary started. Being in WW gulf I, we were told that by reg that if the acft flew a combat mission with the nose art then it would remain, that was the rule, also on the side of each acft was painted siluettes(sp) of tanks, radar sites, etc then numbers were placed on to designate number of kills for each acft, these were placed on the left side aft of the ladder door around where the usless armament block is.

When i was at pope in 91-95, everything was humky dory until the lawn darts got there and someone started whining about how they couldnt put 'art" anywhere.....nevertheless within 2 weeks all was gone on the hogs.

I could be open minded to no nudity or offensive language(like Fu&K, etc) and even grafficly offensive pictures, but what harm is ther in snoopy or garfield etc?????

This is just another was the AF has screwed things up to take the morale out of its troops, no wonder people jump ship!! I know I did after 14 yeard active duty! I had a chief at woodbridge when i was a slick sleeve say its time to leave when you are not having fun anymore, well needless to say the fun stopped way before they let me out..........

JB

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

I vote for door art because I spent a whole lot of money on mine and my wife would skin me if I had it removed.
Our LG comander asked one of our other crew chiefs and I about what we could do to make our birds a little nicer a few years back. We came up with the idea to put the crew chiefs hometown on the side of the jet with an outline of the State of Massachusetts under it. Some crew chiefs (unfortunately I was one of them) ended up getting the pilots hometown on their jets instead. <img src=newicons/madani.gif border=0 align=middle>

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

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