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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2006, 14:23 
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Oh man this could mean less tourism and income for those poor Dutch coffee shops.


Dutch cannabis policy challenged
The Dutch have long been famous for their tolerant attitude to cannabis.
But now they are re-examining their approach, because millions of European "drugs tourists" are heading to the Netherlands to do what they cannot do at home, the BBC's Mike Donkin reports.


Mayor Leers: Drive to decriminalise cannabis trade
The quaint streets of Maastricht are a top attraction for tourists - especially, these days, "drugs tourists".

They flood in across the border from Germany and Belgium, along with the international criminal gangs who operate the drug supply lines.

Maastricht's citizens want an end to this, the city's Mayor Gerd Leers says. So he has called for the Dutch and the rest of Europe to adopt a common "pragmatic approach" to soft drugs.

Mayor Leers has told the Dutch parliament that the licensing system that allows coffee shops to sell 5g of cannabis to each customer should be extended, to allow them to grow their own plants.

"They should have a permit to grow their own cannabis so that they can cut their ties with the criminals," the mayor says. "That way we can control things. At the moment our system is so hypocritical."

'Back-door problem'

Jaap Louwerier, owner of The Fantaisie in Amsterdam, agrees with that. His coffee shop is popular with customers who come to the city for the weekend from France, Britain, Ireland and elsewhere to buy cannabis. "This is all quite legal," he says.


The Dutch have seen a boom in illegal cannabis plantations
"But it is illegal for me to buy the bigger and bigger stocks of cannabis I need to supply these smokers. And the law says I can only keep up to 500 grammes on my premises, which is not enough. In the coffee shops we call this the 'back-door problem'."

In a dim corridor behind the shop, he covertly buys a stash of cannabis from a supplier, while keeping an eye on the door.

"If the police came in now they would confiscate all this," he says. "That's happened once already, and if it happened three times, I'd lose my licence."

Illegal plantations have sprung up across the Netherlands to supply the coffee shops - in outhouses, basements and attics.

What are these secret gardens like? In one old apartment, a bedroom floor is covered with plastic sheeting and earth, and orange lights provide artificial sunlight above a mini-forest of lush green plants.

Health warning

For many poorer families in the Netherlands, cannabis cultivation has become a tempting way to make some extra cash. There have been prosecutions, but only a handful.

Dutch scientists have warned, however, of the health dangers from this cottage industry.


MP Cisca Joldersma wants tough action to curb drugs tourism
At a drugs institute in Utrecht, which carries out research for the government, Harald Wychgel hands me samples collected from the coffee shops - fresh hashish and fat, pre-rolled joints.

"It's not clear how any of this is produced," he says. "So you don't know how strong it is - whether it's mild or very strong cannabis - or whether pesticides have been used on the plants.

"You cannot be sure what you are smoking. And with drugs it is always safest to know for sure."

Tough stance

Right-wing politicians in the Netherlands say that drugs tourism, and the contradictions this has revealed in the cannabis laws, show that liberalisation has had its day. They oppose the Maastricht mayor's call for coffee shops to be given growers' licences.

"That would only mean more drugs tourists and encourage the criminals," says Christian Democrat MP Cisca Joldersma.


Amsterdam coffee shop smokers see no immediate threat
She wants most of the coffee shops to be closed down and a different sort of licence to be issued - an identity card for Dutch cannabis users, so that foreigners would be kept out of the shops that remained.

"The drugs market is a global market," Mrs Joldersma says. "So we cannot have our liberal policy in isolation."

She says the Netherlands must get tougher on soft drugs. "We want one strong European policy, which the Netherlands has to adopt."

Mayor Leers says that would mean throwing away a drugs policy which has been shown to work, for the sake of uniformity. He wants all of Europe to treat cannabis as tolerantly as the Dutch, eliminating drugs tourism, and has summoned fellow civic leaders from other nations to a conference to tell them the advantages that would bring.

"If you look at the figures you can see that only a small percentage of the youth in the Netherlands is addicted to cannabis. In Germany, Belgium and France the figures are much higher," the mayor says. "So our policy works. It is a good policy."

Back in The Fantaisie, the music and the mood are mellow in the smoke. Erick, a Dutch customer, thinks there is no way his government can put the clock back and criminalise cannabis again.

"If they make it illegal, the coffee shops will just go underground, like in the rest of Europe. I mean people haven't stopped smoking there. They can ban cannabis, but they won't stop people smoking."




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and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her".
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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2006, 14:38 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>They can ban cannabis, but they won't stop people smoking.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

"They can ban [insert your favorite indulgence here], but that won't stop pepole from doing it" Ho hum. What if your favorite indulgence is baby rape (see adjacent thread). If the Dutch want cannabis legal in their cities then let them have it. Once they start saying that the problems that are created by that are because their neighbors won't do it too, screw them.


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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2006, 14:46 
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ditto, and I'm sure the "criminals" supplying the extra pot will just close up and walk away happily <img src=newicons/Whatever_anim.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2006, 15:16 
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Pro soft drugs here. I come from the Netherlands. Never used self, but I see the problems by other countries that don't legalise soft drugs. It is there in the black criminal market. Most problems come from France, German and other drugs tourists. Border criminals. Sorry but that is true. Okay when it is gonna about hard drugs, that is what I also don't like. A friend told me once: "A joint in a time kills the crime".


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(47FS Barksdale afb)

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2006, 11:15 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
"A joint in a time kills the crime".
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

A stoner would say that. Crystal Meth addicts would substitute their favorite substance. Everybody wants their favorite indulgence legalized, but that other guy, well, that heroin, (gambling, prostitution, larceny, stock fraud, you name the offense) that's over the top. The problems they are having in Holland seem to be the ones that were predicted. Legalization increased demand which outstripped the regulated supply which created a black market which brings back the organized crime. Even if all of Europe had the same liberalization, the demand would outstrip the supply for the so called "soft drugs", promoting a black market. It will always be an illicit activity for "respectable" people, so they will tend to conceal use and use the black market for supply. That does not mention the pressure there would be to legalize the other recreational drugs up the line. I am cynical and I believe the biggest promoters of the idea that legalization stops crime are the ones who stand to get rich from the business. They do not care about the carnage in society that comes with wide spread recreational drug use. Easy availability of cannabis destroyed the lives of three of my siblings.

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2006, 16:07 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You know the dealer,the dealer is a man
with a lot of grass in his hand
Ah but the pusher is a monster
good god he's not a natural man
The dealer,for a nickel lord
he'll sell you lots of sweet dreams
Ah but the pusher'llruin your body
lord he'll leave... he'll leave your mind to scream
god damn ahh the pusher.
god damn,god damn the pusher.
I said god damn god god damn the pusherman <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Stepphen Wolf, the Pusher

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"A woman drove me to drink
and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her".
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PostPosted: 13 Jan 2006, 16:13 
An excellent song to be sure. :)

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Snipers...and targets.</b>
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PostPosted: 14 Jan 2006, 00:18 
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A10Stress, by your argument and reasoning alcohol should be banned, but we all know the results of that little experiment. Do you know of any scientific studies indicating marijuana is any more dangerous than alcohol?

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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2006, 15:13 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
A10Stress, by your argument and reasoning alcohol should be banned, but we all know the results of that little experiment. Do you know of any scientific studies indicating marijuana is any more dangerous than alcohol?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Maybe you have something there...ban alcohol...hmmmm. What was the result of that little experiment, the 18th amendment? The net result might have been good. I dunno. I'll check it out.

No, my point was that if you can't stand the inevitable consequences of drug liberalization, don't blame the people in foreign countries who oppose it. Convince a majority of representatives to see it your way, then you can have it your way. Anything can be made legal if you have the votes. Observation: There are many laws that don't make sense and are inconsistent with other laws. That does not seem to deter legislatures (and parliaments) from passing these laws. And that does not even include the obscure interpretations of laws by the courts. For instance, the US Supreme Court seems to see an overwhelming privacy issue in any sexual behavior, but allows seat belt and helmet laws to stand. The so called "right to privacy" & "right to choose" they found in the Constitution seems to be selectively enforced. I'm sure we can all come up with more examples. The courts and legislature may see consistency, but I don't.

Otherwise, you're right, I happen to agree with drug laws, and so far I have the votes backing it up. I do not think it inconsistent for me to oppose drug law liberalization while leaving the current alcohol stuff well enough alone. Also, I think it has been established that consistency is not even required.

And the only study I know enough to comment on was that my father was an alcoholic and was able to support his family without obvious adversity, until he retired at 62 years old, from whence he deteriorated. By contrast, three out of the four siblings that used marijuana became totally dysfunctional, dropped out of High School, and are dealing with the after effects 25 years later. One is barely holding on emotionally and financially, while the other two are socially acceptable, just poverty stricken. Two had serious trouble with the law for commiting crimes related to their use of drugs (they were never arrested for "possession", think about that). Of the two that did not partake of the weed vice, we have our own anti social issues, but poverty and crime are not among them. That is because we are educated (Phd, Wharton School, BS Coast Guard Academy for the elder, MS & BS State U of NY for the younger). So, that leaves one that managed to use the weed and still be successful (PhD, U of Montana) but she stopped using before major harm (beating the odds?) and she is in academia now (which is an alien world so don't get me started). I am also familiar with at least three college chums that totally changed their personality and work ethic after starting recreational marijuana use (tune in, turn on, flunk out) in their third year of engineering school. That's all the "scientific study" I need. I know, there are probably similar stories about alcohol, but I did use that particular intoxicant back then without major catastrophe (although it did me no good, and I would not have missed the experience). I may not have the votes to back up my anti-weed opinion tomorrow, but as of today, I assume the majority must have similar "scientific" experience to mine. Look at it this way, we are drawing the line of tolerance by concensus. Most of the electorate wants the line drawn at cannabis. Someone is going to complain no matter where the line is drawn. If they liberalize cannabis, I will be the one complaining...

...Oh f**k it. My kids a almost raised. Why fight it. Try it, you'll like it. The first hit is free. Listen to the poets who said "Don't Bogart that joint, my friend. Pass it over to me." I hope no one minds that the airliner you are riding in tomorrow was designed and built by stoners like me. I gotta go. I've got the munchies just thinking about it.

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2006, 17:56 
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Regarding the "privacy" issue, seatbelt and helmet laws are for personal safety in the hopes of cutting down injury and related medical costs. If you want to delve into sex-related issues, you'd have something if you were pushing for mandatory condom use (I'd LOVE to see the inspection requirements regarding that one, and to paraphrase a line in one of Gene Hackman's movies,"It's for your protection, as well as ours.").

I would also like to remind you that alcohol IS a drug, it is just a socially accepted one. I am also curious as to why you think it is <i>established</i> that consistency is not even required. The problem I find with that situation, is that it diminishes respect for the law. "Because we said so," may work for little kids, but adults usually require greater accountability, reasoning, and transparency.

Surprisingly, I'm less concerned about stoned engineers, as their designs will have LONG since crashed and burned with the first prototype, than I am with the maintainers. Also "high" on my list are the current batch of "flowerchild" politicians currently mixing speedball legislation at all levels of government.

You can keep the intoxicants for yourself. For me, a strong hit is a rare cola at Micky-D's, and even that small amount of caffeine makes me suffer, dearly. As to the munchies, it IS getting close to supper. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2006, 08:57 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The problem I find with that situation, is that it diminishes respect for the law. "Because we said so," may work for little kids, but adults usually require greater accountability, reasoning, and transparency.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I have been accused of being an adult (or is it adulterer?). I do not have "respect" for the law. Sometimes contempt, but never respect. Most laws have nothing to do with morality, and are conceived by immoral people anyway. (The image of Ted Kennedy grilling a judge candidate comes to mind) "Because we said so" is the only way to look at it. It is not immoral to carry a cigarette lighter on an airliner, make a right on red without stopping, cheat on your taxes, drive without insurance, post the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, smoke marijuana etc., etc. I comply because I don't want to risk the penaties. I someties rationalize that our society is better off with these rules, but I frequently can't believe it (just like you?). Furthermore, I think the jurisprudence system is wrong in 50% of its decisions regarding guilt/penalty in the breaking of laws. Flipping a coin would be much more efficient. Something else I learned from my brother's problems is to stay out of the legal system at all costs. The night the NYPD cop beat up my brother for joyriding in the stolen car, he did him a favor. Street Justice was swifter and a much more effective motivator. If I was ever falsely accused of something serious, I would definitely consider fleeing the country. When a crime is commited against me, I am inclined to file it in my experience file. If a crime was commited against my children, I would consider some street justice of my own. Most of the judges and lawyers are more interested in their own careers, and even the most consciencious jurors really want to be somewhere else (some of them are drunks and drug users too). Justice is not a high priority in the justice system. Whew! I better get back to my therapy now. I'm trying the Racegal8 approach, I'm calm, I'm picturing a mountain stream, birds are chirping...no, the world sucks, I'm gonna go kick the dog.

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2006, 09:03 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Regarding the "privacy" issue, seatbelt and helmet laws are for personal safety in the hopes of cutting down injury and related medical costs. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

"It's my body and it's none of the government's business how I take care of it."

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

Edited by - a10stress on Jan 17 2006 08:04 AM

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2006, 10:15 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"It's my body and it's none of the government's business how I take care of it."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

But it <i>is</i> the government's business, being that your are using government roads, may have children that need to be supported, may incur serious injury requiring the spending of government resources (though that can be easily countered by "you weren't wearing your seatbelt, you get to suffer/die per your own stupidity"), and you produce income for the government through taxes (not to mention the psychological ripple effect of lost productivity from those involved with you such as family, friends, coworkers...), so the government is interested in protecting its revenue source.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2006, 12:17 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>But it is the government's business<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Because they say so. See, no argument.

Ninety percent of the game is half mental.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2006, 17:15 
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Build your own private road and they have no say. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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