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The US still has a fair number of B-61s set aside for the tactical airforce, as in F-16 and F-15 aircraft, and was wondering the prefered delivery technique for getting this weapon on it's target? Assumming anything worth nuking will probably be well protected, how you would get this on a target protected by an SA-10? Can you loft a nuke without being so close, even low level, that you expose yourself to radar? I was playing with a horizon calculator and with no terrain to hide behind the radar horizon can be some 10 or 20 miles. Or has the day of the non stealth delivery of gravity bombs passed?

B-61 is probobly the most flexible nuke we have. You can loft it, lay down ( as low as 50ft ), over the shoulder, para-retard, or do a normal ballistic drop. The whole time the pilot can decide nuke yield, air burst or ground burst, time delay and command detonate or disable after launch. This is why even F-15s have a nuke panel in the pit and why we take it out for foriegn sales.

Brownells calls me Aaron Burr cause the
way I'm droppin Hamilton$

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The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Can you loft it before you get shot down? Or is there a better method against a heavily defended target? Why has there not been a standoff missile launched tactical nuke that could launch before dealing with terminal defenses? Thanks.

A good example would be, you want to nuke the Kirov battle cruiser, and it has pretty good defenses, including the naval version of the SA-10, and SA-8.
What delivery would give the aircraft the best chance of survival?

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Can you loft it before you get shot down? Or is there a better method against a heavily defended target? Why has there not been a standoff missile launched tactical nuke that could launch before dealing with terminal defenses? Thanks.


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????????
Tomahawk, ALCM, SRAM, not to mention all the ICBMs and IRBM which would be FAR more likely to be used than a bomb. You wont see any "tacticle" nukes used by the U.S. in your lifetime, we have grown less and less dependant on them for the last 50 years.

Brownells calls me Aaron Burr cause the
way I'm droppin Hamilton$

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

SRAM was a good weapon, and SRAM-T was in development at the end of the cold war. Launched below the radar horizon, and very difficult to intercept. Unfortunately they are retired, no?
Tommahawk in the anti ship mode has not been publically claimed to have a nuclear capability, and can be shot down by terminal defenses like the Russian version of CIWs, and KIROV has like 8 of them, along with its missile defenses. Same with ALCM, but perhaps a stealthy ACM could nuke a Kirov.
You mentioned ICBMs, can they be used against maneuvering naval forces? Assuming a 30 minute flight time, knowing the position at launch of the ICBM or SLBM, and the naval group moving at 30 knots will move 15 nautical miles in any unpredictable direction. I suppose if you used a SLBM against a surface group, with a depressed trajectory you might get the flight time down to 10 minutes or so, but it still might be difficult to target. Unless the ballistic warhead has some sort of terminal guidence and sensor...

i am sorry but this seems to be a little close to tactics. The exact meth of how these would be deployed will not be discussed here from what I know of the guys who really are in the know.

Can you give me a plausible situation where we would nuke a Russian heavy cruiser? Why do our subs shadow Russian fleets it we wont just torpedo it when we need to?

Brownells calls me Aaron Burr cause the
way I'm droppin Hamilton$

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

As I see it is we are at the point of using nukes we have reached way too deep into our bag of tricks and at a last ditch effort. If we are at this point in a conflict most of the questions that have been asked here are mute. Hell if we get to nukes there might be a crew chief flying CAP for the stike because we are scrapping bottom.

live to wrench, wrench to live

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Or if you got Crew Chiefs flying, its the ones that have heard the old stories when we sat "Victor Alert".
Pilot always said last thing they are to do is shoot the crew chiefs as they leave the tab? SO why not take over the bird and fly out yourself? LOL

I was always with the impression if my bird sitting nuke alert ever taxied, the shit done hit the fan and I'm dead anyway!

Of course I remember a time, forget the unit it was, but an F-4 on take off roll released a B-58 just as he rotated! Didnt know folks could run that fast!






Edited by - Hogsnort on Jul 12 2006 15:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
As I see it is we are at the point of using nukes we have reached way too deep into our bag of tricks and at a last ditch effort. If we are at this point in a conflict most of the questions that have been asked here are mute. Hell if we get to nukes there might be a crew chief flying CAP for the stike because we are scrapping bottom.

live to wrench, wrench to live
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Pretty much my point.

Brownells calls me Aaron Burr cause the
way I'm droppin Hamilton$

_________________
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

They use to have the "POINT OF NO RETURN LINES " painted in front of the TAB's in Korea with the "Tylenol" on board and if the jet crossed it The North considered it a first strike,.

But that story about the pilots shooting the CrewChiefs before they leave we had a "Cure" for that

DONT STAND IN FRONT OF THE JET! and LEAVE THE CHOCKS IN!
cant shoot you then besides he cant shoot you before he gets in because the Jet might not "Work"<img src=newicons/saevil.gif border=0 align=middle> I think its called the
"Toggle Switch" method Until the pilot gets in and the CrewChief gets down the TOGGLE SWITCH doesnt allow the Jet to start.

We hadthis talk back in 86 when we got a New batch of "LT's" and we were in Germany.
They brought up "We have to Shoot you" RULE after a Few "BEERS" and Us after DRINKING alot of "BEER"
WE gave them the "CrewChief is WORTH MORE THAN YOU KNOW LIST"!
And when the point was made by one of the "LT's"
"I'll order you to STAND THERE while I shoot you"! (CrewChiefs when he said that) <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle> OR We'll Court Martial You! (crewchiefs still laughing)<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think it "DUFF" Who said "SIR"
"First of all , can you shoot a moving target?
2nd I can fly this Jet one way because thats what it'll be anyway.
3rd I'm not standing in front of the Jet after I put you in
4th The Jet might not start if you think YOU'LL shoot me first<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
5th I have a BAG OF NUTS AND BOLTS
6TH I have a M-16
7TH I'll take your Pistol while I point my M-16 at you
8TH CHOCKS will be in
9TH The Weapons Guys might of already Told you "Your Weapons might not be ARMED YET"

and THE 10TH REASON WHY "CREWCHIEFS ARE WORTH MORE THAN YOU KNOW LIST"

If anyone thinks You can order them to STAND THERE while you Shoot them and if they dont "You'll Court Martial Them" is a Threat

YOU'VE HAD TOO MUCH TO DRINK .<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

Goose

I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

WTG Goose!<img src=newicons/bounce.gif border=0 align=middle>

How goes the VA mission this week?
Everything finally straightened out?

I have sat on Victor and these storys are false. The storys came out of the chicken squadron the aircraft left and the base was overrun and the ground crews had been hung. I miss those days sitting there with that Marroon tiped beast hanging on my Phantom. I also remember there was always one ass bag that would not play (No PRP)and I would have to do double duty.

live to wrench, wrench to live

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Goob,
Your right inline with what I originally heard when I was first tossed onto Victor.

Where did you play the victor games at?
I sat mine during the 81-82 time frame at Aviano with some trash "D" models from Torrejon.
Always loved getting a bird in on rotation and right in the forms it stated...."Not Pad Capable"!
Why did you send it in the first place? They wanted someone else to fix their problems! LOL

I rather enjoyed sitting victor. Had plenty of time to study and lots of time to screw with the Sky Cops by tossing rocks at the fences and watching them run around looking for nothing!

Turkey I was out of Ramstien 1968 E models 82-83 time frame. I remember one time durring a analsize we went into a red so me got pickled off at a tabvee and as good crew chiefs we went to sleep . You remember you wake up and hear people talking still muffled (IE still in masks ) so you went back to sleep than you here someone talking normal so you gather up the rest of the sleeping wrench nomads and go out side to find the the shelter had been purged and sky cops asking how you got past the red rope needless to say they got their asses handed to them. God I miss the cold war,Ronald Regan times where good. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

live to wrench, wrench to live

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GOOB,

We all knew it was a bunch of <img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle> but it was Fun to screw with People.
Never got to sit on that kind of alert, It was either "MED-VAC" or on the Line in KFIA with Alert HOGs

Alert Duty on MED jets was real Tough, leave the jet Fired-up with AUX power warmed or cool inside and be ready to open the "SIDE RAMP" when the Wagons showed-up

Which meant you as the CrewChief ate a couple of Frozen TV dinners and Checked-out the Radio to see what was playing and took a nap in the Cockpit..
Basically the samething on Trash Haulers but no side door.

MAC was real tough back then
<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

Goose

I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

THE GOOSE a Mac trained killer hell I am having problems even typing that. Tell me was it hard crewing a dipsy dumpster. I have heard that those casters are a bear to change and dont get me started on when the aircrews bust the lid hinges. (I kid I kid)

live to wrench, wrench to live

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Oh Man, The HELL I WENT THRU<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Those long walks to the Blast Fence in the COLD or HEAT just to get to a Jet that the AC or Heaters were running,all nice and comfortable.
Then Doing my NCO DUTY ordering those "Young Airmen" into the Night to do the Pre-flights in the weather was TOUGH but they had to learn the same way I did THE HARD WAY!
But I oversaw that by staying inside in the Cockpit with my headset on where they could call me by hooking into the com port if they need Help.
Then When They BITCHED I set them straight about the old days, Working on C-9's and Working the DE-ICE TRUCKS in -30 degree weather shoveling snow only getting a few hours nap before the Crews showed-up and above all Those "CODE-3 RED-BALLS" for the Oven not working or the coffee was cold and working "Franticly changing out a Fuse or light blub. Remember even if you burn your hand in the Oven if the little bitty Green Light isnt working The crew cant open the oven door TO SEE and feel the heat <img src=newicons/Whatever_anim.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/idea.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle> and would want a SPARE.

Then on the TEENIE WEENIE AIRLINERS, you had to know how to pack 500lbs of Luggage into a space the size of a toybox for some 2 star going to Langley for the weekend and DONT SCRATCH THE GOLFBAG NO MATTER WHAT!!!!<img src=newicons/madani.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/madani.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_cussing.gif border=0 align=middle> tHEY'LL crew your ass out for that!
Make sure their favorite Doughnuts are on board, coffee is fresh proper head rest with their rank is on the seat and if their wife is flying the correct number of Rose's (2 star 's wife gets 2 rose's) then the DV plate in window carpet fresh sprinkled on carpet some Glad airfreshener sprayed,ash trya empty (YES back then you could SMOKE IN FLIGHT) Plus you could smoke while doing your pre-flight in the jet or during Tow Jobs,Ehgine runs etc.... polishing and waxing the jet,using NEVER-DULL on the Chrome slats and on the Tails vertical leading edge.

Thats why I was glad to get to be DCC on Yokota's a AFCC DET ET-39
no more of that stuff just Armour all on the tires and floor mats, using fantastic to clean the walls on the inside and the bugs off the nose and slats on the outside,making sure all the pretty lights lite up on the "PANEL"
aND MAKING SURE ABOVE ALL , MY PILOTS FOOT WARMERS (under the pilots and co-pilots seats) always worked because the temp inside had to be below 70 degrees to keep the electronics COOL.
If they didnt work and since you werent a DV jet you got (2nd'S) on the parts list YOU WERE EXPECTED to use any and all means of the
"OFFICAL CREW CHIEF" Rule book to get them.
Bribing the Supply Guy or Girl with promise to get them something next time you went to Korea or PI,Dating a Girl in supply, but My RoomDog worked in supply and JIMBO took care of my parts most of time plus dated a girl from main supply ,pretty much had that covered.
But when he couldnt get them you used other means as "BORROWING" from a "Rock's or PI's" T-39 that spent the night at Yokota or if you were on the TA line took it from one of there's while parked .
But dont get CAUGHT! If you do have your story straight,
"I was just looking to see how your Jets looked and how "Nice" their kept <img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_bs.gif border=0 align=middle>ing
And got the HELL OUT OF THERE. With the "Borrowed Foot Warmer"

Yes I was a MAC TRAINED KILLER Goob, proud of my time I spent with the "ELITE" of the TRASH HAULING UNION.
BUT not as PROUD AS BEING A HOG KEEPER the MAC training helped me get geared up for that Job and Prep be for that HARSH DUTY.

So I had been trained in the ART of "MAC-A-TAC" One of the USAF's most Feared. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/saevil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>


Oh by the way you have to be a 3rd Degree in BULLSHITING TOO to hold that title

Goose

I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!





Edited by - sgtgoose1 on Jul 15 2006 08:42

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

<img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>I bow befor a true MAC God (dont scratch the golf bag)and you let them live. I thought I had it bad putting snow skis in traval pods.

live to wrench, wrench to live

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Goob, did some of that too on the HOG in the PODS.

The BIGGEST NO-NO I ever did was SPILL COFFEE on an O-6 while serving as a back-up C/C when the "Lizard"(My ET-39) was gone.
I had went with an LTGEN to the ROK and we dropped him and his staff off at Osan and picked up a full BIRD and his staff to go to Kadena.
We had a rule "No Coffee etc... " until we hit Crusising Alt."
The Col. wanted a cup of Coffee I said "Sir when we get too... He cut me off and said "Chief I want a Cup of Coffee" I said "Yes Sir"
Was trying to be careful but on a CT-39 their isnt much room and your always "Bent-over" plus there's a step to the cabin and I tried to hand him his coffee and the LT sitting across from him bumped me with his arm and there it went <img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/anim_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> right down his pant leg.
I knew I was <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> but his staff was jumping all over in that tight little area trying to clean it up .
The Lt said "Chief see you what you did?<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=newicons/madani.gif border=0 align=middle> I just kept passing back paper towels.
The Col said "Chief you see this spill?" I said "Yes Sir"
Col "Well get me another cup!" so I did and I apologized etc...
That Lt said "You will pay for the cleaning of his uniform"<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
The Col said "No I dont pay for it Lt and it was an accident"
"So he doesnt have too" Just be more Careful"
The A/C asked me "Whats going on back there Goose?" on the Headset
I told him "Well maybe next time he'll wait" the A/C said to me and he was a LTCOL.

So I didnt get the FIRING SQUAD FOR THAT ONE!

it was pretty good duty when I got it, I flew with the WingCC a couple of times while he was the A/C for the CINC and the General was GREAT to us CrewChiefs. His last flight as CINC he had Champaign brought out to the DV spot shook all our hands and gave us all a Glass and toasted us and We toasted him. He was a good man.

But I was glad to go to the HOG, I got my assignment cut 6 months short to go to England AFB.
sO PACKING TRAVEL PODS is a cake walk.
Try packing a Queen size brass bed in to a T-39 now thats Talent.

Goose

I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"

Transient at Aviano.....Hmmmm lets talk about being "Good Packers"!

The ski's in the travel pod was an easy one, especially on the F-4's when their travel pods had nose cones that opened allowing excellant access! First I saw with tanks of this kind was the German AF on their F-4's. They had centerline tanks made that way! I then saw a few USAFE units with the wing tanks done in same fashion.

I have actually unboxed stereo's, reel to reel units, turntables, and other assorted electronic components and sat them on the back seaters lap's in Phantoms as well! That was never an American aircrew, usually Turkish.

Have actually removed components to stuff panels and reinstall component on return trip.

Best or easiest travel pod was probably on the British Vulcan Bomber. They had a travel box basically that winched up into the bomb bay.
I loaded bicycles, Vespa Mopeds, small household appliances, man you name it and we loaded it.
Usually after a Vulcan left the BX was about empty of electronics till next shipment!

That was the 1 acft I would have given my left......well you understand, to get a ride in! I got to taxi in one a couple times. We had a flight scheduled, but the crew got called back to England the day before I was to get my ride. That sucked!

Never got to spill anything on any of them Goose, least not that I remember as an accidental thing anyway!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Had some interesting last flight hose downs while on the site on the Nellis range.
Best one had a Major on his last ride, stopped at EOR after touchdown for a rather long time, we usually had no reason to stop, they just came back to chocks. Well as he was parked, and saw numerous fire extenguishers and the sort("we had the "old" style canisters on the rolling systems we had refurbished from the junk yards just for this purpose!")he exited the cockpit to the backbone, ran down a wing, jumped off the tip and ran out across the line in the noonday sun totally butt naked!

Although never spillking anything on an Officer I was called on the carpet by flying squadron commander once along with my a/c pilot.
We were in the BX at England during lunch one day and the Commander overheard us calling each other by nickname/callsign and joking around. Got called in for fratanizing, chewed our ass's real well then laughed once he told us to leave his office.
My A/C Pilot was Major John "Buck" Buckingham. I sure you remember him from the 75th.
I saw a few of the guys on some old Discovery channel clips from the 1st Gulf War. Of course McSwain narrarating that one show, although he was in a guard unit by then. Mark "Rock" Clemons was another......there were a couple more but names escape me!

Enough rattling or getting off thread again!



Edited by - Hogsnort on Jul 15 2006 19:34

I dotted a Col. eye once checking sholder harnesses and he thanked me for it( he hitched them up him self and I just had to check them) well any way he came down from with the side of his face kind of puffy.IT WAS A GOOD DAY<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

live to wrench, wrench to live

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Damn Goose you got some real serious stories dog ! How in the hell do you remember all that ? Damn I cant remember what i have for fuel and LOX when I pull my 781A's at the end of a shift. You need to write book.

"By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a peerage or Westminster Abbey !" Nelson the Immortal Memory

_________________
YGBSM !

Billy,

I kept journals,over my whole time in.What happened?Etc........I even have my Flight Logs from Yokota,Where,When, Why and Hours in the airPlus I worte notes in my -1 Ck list I still have
Good thing I would of lost it all by now in one way or another.
Funny thing about MS though it might destory one part of the brain area,but in the brains attempt to re-wire its self it goes thru other areas that "Un-lock" hidden memory.
Its strange as Hell ,but its a medical fact. I cant remember sometimes when I'm talking to someone what I was sayingin mid scentance,or will keep re-peating the same line over and over.
I dont notice it but others do, CJ gets on me about it and points it out,I've had testing done and its just part of my motor skills being effected. I dont relize when I say words "Jumbo-Upped" I dont relize that either,so if we're on the phone just point it out I dont get upset like I did.
So I go see Specialist's every few months who work with me

AND TONS OF POST-IT NOTES! <img src=newicons/anim_lol.gif border=0 align=middle>

Goose

I know now for a FACT that Truth is Stranger than Fiction and IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORST!

_________________
\"Live Free Or Die\"