WT Forums

Guys,
Sometimes you find or read on the internet the most ugly things about war that can shock you. This is one of it. I tell it you, because it is reallity not for fun or making the Airforce and his pilots black.
I had two things to do. Inform you or not. But we all know that we see this once on a day on the internet. So I decided to tell you this.
Stand still a moment by the fallen British soldier.
For those who want to see the video, you hear and see the cockpit of an A-10
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-10043,00.html
On CNN is a translation about the words.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02 ... index.html
If somebody don't like this or find it not good. I think the Webmaster will this topic shut down.

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73-1664

thanks guys, wasn't sure how it would go over here.

Sorry Dutchy, didn't mean anything by my post.

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If it Flys, shoot it

I disagree with the too close to home comment. It is the U.S. Militarys responsebility to respond to these incidents and media requests. Any opinion posted on this site should not be misconstrued as an official position.

This site allows us an avenue to discuss everything concerning the A10 and other intrests.

Mistakes happen, and I dont see anything inflamatory by this post.

PArt of bettering ourselves as professionals is in evaluating lessons and mistakes and making the best course of action to prevent them from happening again. I dont think their is any service out their that works harder on this than the U.S. Military.

Much of what we as Military professionals have learned has been handed off to our foriegn partners. our greatest customers are infact the NATO allies, when they are in need of updateing their warfighting abilities.

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\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton

I agree with TheBigThug this should be a place to talk all things A-10..good..or bad. I feel for all involved, those on the ground, family and friends of the ones lost, and those in the air doing a hard job every day.

I agree....

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I couldn't agree with Thug more. I saw this story this morning before heading out for work. The News agency, as one might expect, edited the hell out of the tape and it \"LOOKED\" like the pilots had asked about friendlies, but then engaged without waiting to find out. Typical for the press.

Dutchy, thanks so much, not only for this thread but also for posting the link to the full video. To me anyway, it's pretty damn clear that they asked and confirmed that no friendlies were in the area before engaging.

Though I genuinly feel for the loss of the British soldiers on the ground in this instance, from what I've seen in the video, I think that the pilots could hardly be blamed. I also know that anytime there is a shooting war, you are going to see these kinds of mistakes. They've happened in every conflict I can think of. All we can hope for, is that we will learn from these mistakes and come up with better ways to keep this from happening in the future.

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Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option

I thought the same thing...they asked multiple times if there were friendlies in the area and they were told no....

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I felt sick for everyone involved watching that video. It is painfully obvious the pilots were not at fault. They asked and were answered multiple times no friendlies present.

It was like watching a move that you already know has a bad ending. The controller on the ground talking to them telling them no friendlies present, the pilots thinking they were killing bad guys, the friendlies on the ground getting shot...

I've fucked up before, and I'm sure everyone else has gotten the the same feeling, like a mix of butterflies and a pit in your stomach when you realize something has gone horribly wrong. The scale of it must have been x100 for those pilots. The number one emotion I felt watching that was sympathy for them. Anybody who thinks they were negligent needs to be smacked in the back of the head and listed to the pilot crying at the end of the tape.

IMHO the pilots shouldn't be held responsible, in this instance. There are just too many variables. they were told No Friendlies until just after the fact. Maybe the Brits overshot their box; got excited and went further forward. Who knows. And it's situations like this that improve IFF the next time. The Hog drivers will live with this the rest of their lives, too, especially the trigger man. Idiots that push for maximum prosecution should be given a backseat ride and asked to ID everything they see as friendly or not. A little perspective would be in order, I think.

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\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

Dutchy, thanks for posting this. As Thug said, you did it with no malice and how can we make sure mistakes don't happen again if we don't look closely at what went wrong?

It was a tragedy for all involved.

Thanks guys for you discussion. It was also inside me a discussion if I put it or not on this forum. But CNN has it also and the whole world could see it.

There is one thing were nobody talks about: \"How is it possible that this video came by the The Sun newspaper and internetsite?\" I think this was not for civilian eyes like you and me.

For me are pilots and soldiers heroes, but also a human that can also make a mistake. I hope the British soldiers and the American pilots get all the help that the need to live with this.

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73-1664

Dutchy,

The truth can either be \"Great or Sad\" but hiding it is even worse. These Pilots \"Weren't\" the \"Cowboys\" they were made out to be in the press and just my seeing the video proves that point.
I'm sure that the Family is looking for someone to blame and everything is always a \"Cover-up\".
Just by looking at the video you can see they took the steps and asked 2 twice if they were cleared. I'm not a pilot and I'll have to agree with \"Thug\" on those matters he knows what its like up there.

But as far as the \"Sun\" getting a copy, lets face it someone can get anything from anyone if they dig hard enough and find some
\"Greedy SOB\" They them self are guilty of a crime for leaking the HUD film.
They could of hired a lawyer or even written to the \"Ministry\" the Family and probably gotten the \"Hud tape\" now to see, but their on a \"Witch Hunt\" and the \"SUN\" is just fueling the fire.

The US will end up paying the family a settlement and the case will be closed.

For all the Great that the Hog has done its more known for its \"Mishaps\" in the press than The Job it has perfromed.

Plus those pilots have to carry that Burden for the rest of their lives, and that in its self has to be a personal Hell.



Goose

Well said Goose.

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Slow is Fast, Fast is Slow
Violence may not be the best option, but it IS an option

True Story, I think I had posted about a target I Rolled in on In Bosnia. Turned out the Intel was bad, the SF troops were unsure and under fire, and the Structure was being utilised by the Combatants and civillians. In others, a simple mistake can make a a smart bomb, just another Blind hail merry pass... On others , it is difficult and many times you have to refuse support to Ground troops because of the potential for unsafe deployment of ordnace. Type7 spoke on one a few years back, because the Ground Troops did not understand the ballistic capabilities of the 30mm.. Sometimes you have to work it for another 45 minutes, or hand it of to you relief.

It always comes down to how well your "SA" is in the Cloud. It's tough to seperate emotion from the job, when the "radio" gets graphic!

I can Live with poking my eyes out with Pencils hunting for SAMS, but Hunting soft targets, while providing support to friendly units is a very difficult task, I did FAC work for 8 years, and I had to move on to new opportunities. I was Fried! Kudos to Guys like Coach that have spent their entire Career "Working It"

Those pilots in this particular incedent, were working it, although the Orange panels were a flag to change their posture. It is also the responsebility of those Ground commanders to work together as a team. I had always made it a rule of thumb, "those that have ground truth" are correct, as long as it reinforces my tactical opinion.

If it is a Tac center 30 miles form the Action area... I blow em off, till I have some substantiated proof. I have came home with a Full Rack before....Would do it again if I felt the need.

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\"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. \"

George S. Patton