WT Forums

I didn't say anything about nukes, that was Mudd.

I said massed incendiary raids.

Let us raze the 10 biggest cities of our next opponent, and IMHO you won't see anyone provoking the United States for a long, long time.

BTW, were the nuke strikes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki genocide?

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

BTW, what does the date have to do with what is acceptable?

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Nuking is much worse than regular bombing. But I would disagree with razing cities too, although not as vehemently as nuking, because we want the friendly people on our side, not alienated. That means bombing terror sites and military sites, not razing a city, which would include civilian buildings.

Why? Because Iraqis must build Iraq in the end, and in fact most Iraqis are happy we're there. There are attacks but the violent opposition is certainly in the minority. If you raze Baghdad you won't find any Iraqis to take over the Police Force the coalition makes, to join the Self-Defense Military the coalition designs, or take over the government. You'll just alienate everyone, and militarize most.

What we're trying to do is setup a good, fair, prosperous country. Why do you think attackers target those Iraqis who join the coalition (For example, how many Iraqi Police Chiefs have been killed in the last month)? The attackers know once the Iraqis take over their country it is over for them and their damned terrorist friends, so thyey are DESPERATE as hell, trying to knock off Iraqis who join the coalition. They know that a free, prosperous Iraq is EXACTLY the thing that will cause terrorism to lose virtually all support beyond the hardcore assholes.

Raze Baghdad and those aholes will be happy as hell. It'd be the worst move.


Edited by - ViperTTB on Sep 22 2003 09:31 AM

If we raze Baghdad, they won't need any police, there will be nothing left to patrol.

They won't like us(not that they do now), but they will fear us while at the same time providing a powerful example to our other potential enemies.

This whole mess as it is now is Vietnam 1965.

The light at the end of the Iraqi tunnel isn't even visible now, nor is it likely to ever be so. This war is just getting started.

You read it here first, please remember who to attribute the prediction to when you discuss this many years from now, and Americans are still dying in the streets of Baghdad.

BTW, we are on the same course in Afghanistan too. That whole occupation is falling apart at the seams.

Rumsfeld is McNamara without the lofty IQ.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Well, in concept I disagree with your plan and I agree with Bush's plan. How Bush actually executes it will be the big deal, because what something looks like on paper means nothing.

It's been only half a year in Iraq. Things have to be much better one year from now. If they aren't, you'll be proven right. But I'm hoping the plan can be executed because it has the potential to reshape the Middle East for the better in a big way.

Fear is not the deterent you think it is, not when you are dealing with Islamic radicals. Remember, they believe in a completely different creedo than any of us, one you cannot even begin to fathom. You say you don't give a rats ass about the Iraqi people, thats your right, but don't expect to rid our ugly american image anytime soon. The Iraqi people are like you and I, they want to live life and see their children thrive. Radical terrorists exist as voting citizens of the United States just as prevelent as in the Middle East...Does Theodore Kyzinski (sp?) ring a bell, how about Timothy McVeigh. Nuking Philly won't deter the likes of the above. You also miss the point that firebombing cities such Dresden and Kobe Japan, where part of the strategic campaign to break the will of the enemey, that were nations fighting the allies, not terrorist cells within nations.

I agree...Things could have been done different, but killing a popoulus in this situation only will create more enemeys, and we have a full plate dealing with our current ones. Unless we want to take a page out of Hitler's bok, and start our own final solution, we better start finding a common ground with the moderates so they can help us with the radicals. Otherwise why not just start eliminating them all?

This is not vietnam calm down. You know the one thing Vietnam did to us was to turn us into pyschologically pu88ies every time things dont go 100% the way we want it to.

You comments on Iraq sniper reflect the Nazi solution, more than an American solution. You can not commit genocide without inviting genocide in response.

My problem here is sniper you fail to recognize that freedom has a price, it is not pleasant, but it can not be avoided without simple and immoral solutions as you have proposed.

"This is not vietnam calm down."

Oh, right, and you are drawing on your extensive military background to make that assesment, right???

"You know the one thing Vietnam did to us was to turn us into pyschologically pu88ies every time things dont go 100% the way we want it to."

We are 'pussies' because we will not do what is required to win. The last time the United States did what was required to win on to total victory in a war was 1945.

"You comments on Iraq sniper reflect the Nazi solution, more than an American solution. You can not commit genocide without inviting genocide in response."

Tell that to Curtis LeMay. And just so i'm straight with you, you consider the US bombing campaign of WWII to be genocide?



"My problem here is sniper you fail to recognize that freedom has a price, it is not pleasant, but it can not be avoided without simple and immoral solutions as you have proposed."

LOL, please do continue with your amusing lecture. What i suggest is no more immoral than WWII....mankind's shining- but fleeting- moment of victory over evil and tyranny.

I fail to realize freedom has a price....LOL.

I didn't see you in LZ Romeo when i was getting shot at in Panama cuz. You and your 'morals' were nowhere to be seen.


"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Chad

"Fear is not the deterent you think it is, not when you are dealing with Islamic radicals. Remember, they believe in a completely different creedo than any of us, one you cannot even begin to fathom."

Islamisicts are not the only enemy's of freedom. Most of our enemie's are secular. Fear works quite well on those.


"You say you don't give a rats ass about the Iraqi people, thats your right, but don't expect to rid our ugly american image anytime soon."

You could give out teddy bears in downtown baghdad, they'd still hate us. They'll hate us because we are what they will never be...free and prosperous. We are the great satan, remember? There's nothing we can do that will make these people take a warm and fuzzy toward us.

"The Iraqi people are like you and I, they want to live life and see their children thrive."

Which is why their mothers are proud when their children die as suicide bombers? Yeah, lots of American moms are like that too.

"Radical terrorists exist as voting citizens of the United States just as prevelent as in the Middle East...Does Theodore Kyzinski (sp?) ring a bell, how about Timothy McVeigh."

Oh, ok, two. You named two in the last 20 years. The muslim terrorist list is about oh, 5000x longer? At least.

"Nuking Philly won't deter the likes of the above. You also miss the point that firebombing cities such Dresden and Kobe Japan, where part of the strategic campaign to break the will of the enemey, that were nations fighting the allies, not terrorist cells within nations."

Iraq was a nation fighting us, or did you miss that? If we fight the DPRK, it will be a nation fighting us, correct? I never once referred to this as a measure for fighting terrorism, cause there is no one method for fighting terrorism. All one can do is remain vigilant in prevention, and respond with swift fury after the fact.

"I agree...Things could have been done different, but killing a popoulus in this situation only will create more enemeys,"

LOL, no it won't. Quite the opposite in fact.

"and we have a full plate dealing with our current ones."

I contend that plate would be much emptier if we reverted to WWII tactics and strategies. The concept of Total victory.

"Unless we want to take a page out of Hitler's bok, and start our own final solution, we better start finding a common ground with the moderates so they can help us with the radicals."

Yeah, good luck. You know as well as i that we aren't even attacking the right nations. Saudi Arabia is the greatest producer of terrorists in the world, and we coddle thier oppresive dictatorship as it keeps it's foot on the throat of it's people. Who do they blame?

You guessed it....us.

"Otherwise why not just start eliminating them all?"

Indeed, why not.


"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

I must say, it's interesting to see the liberalism and PC thinking that pervades what i would call a right of center board.

WWII could NEVER have been fought and won in this climate of 'enlightenment'. We'd have the Matt Lott's of this country running around calling our military legends practicioners of genocide.

Curtis Lemay killed more people with his orders that the US has killed in all other wars combined, and 80% of them were civilians.

Amazing what a difference 50 years of socialist thinking will make.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

[quote]
Did you leave when we firebombed Dresden or Tokyo?

-------------------

Both of these were mainly freaks of nature and lots of incindary bombs. Let alone Tokyo being built with lots of wood.

For the record I am against using any size nuke. If you do any net search you will find above ground testing, ending up making the entire world a lab. Especially these pissant nuke ground penetrators. They don't go past 80' if that and most underground bunkers are far removed from receiving any nuke damage. Even below ground nuke testing had up to 30% of them leaking really nasty crap to the atmosphere.

I don't think much of Gen. LeMay either. He lied about how ready SAC was. There was a Wings on SAC. Ike's military aide, Gen. Goodpastor watched a LeMay run exercise. Not many birds got off in the 15 minute window. LeMay remarked he would have a 48 hour warning of an impending Soviet attack. Goodpastor was more than pissed off. LeMay ran the B-29s into Japan the same way the Limeys ran their heavy bombers into Europe. B-29s weren't ready for prime time and they ran better at low altitude. Trying to use SAC in the Korean and Nam war was worse than tooth pulling with LeMay in charge. You got a war you use your assets.

Jack

"You got a war you use your assets."

I believe that was my entire point.


"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

bull shit I did not say our military leader easily went to genocide. Unlike you sniper I dont look at a nuke and say lets use it. Nukes are weapon of last resort not first option.

Liberal?

I am far from it. It is amazing how a different point of view will insite sneers and insults, defending ones views at all cost is something I am fammilliar with, but lets not go down this path again.

Do you really think leveling Baghdad will deter terrorism? Right...It will create thousands of fatherless children and encourage them to become martyrs. To paint the people in Iraq with such a broad stroke is very incorrect.in Iraq? You have been following the happenings in Iraq. The good portion of the populus is trying to put their beleagered country back together. They don't know what to make of the United States...12 years ago we encouraged an uprising, then left them to be slaughtered, that sort of thing tends to stick in the backs of people's minds. Would you die to fight city hall Snipe? Before you answer yes...Think about it, would you face certain death, the death of your family, the death of your friends to fight a way of life that is so so for you, but against what another country wants? Think about it...

Most of these people are not what you think. Take Iran for example...They were once a great American ally, so great Richard Nixon opended the United States defense industry like Walmart for the Shah. The regime is the issue, not the populus. Iraq was created by the British Empire after the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Iraq did not chose to go to war with the United States, that should be evendent by the soldiers surrendering to a CNN crew, they just wanted food. There was no fierce loyalty to Saddam or to his regime, no nationalism....The Wermacht and Japanise Imperial Army by contrast fought to the very last man in some battles.


The issue here is Islamic Fundementalism, this has no nationalistic borders, no empire, in fact we find it amongst us in our very own country. We are fighting terrorist cells, not another country. Its not black and white, its not good guy vs bad guy. Its abstract, and very unconventional. Thus it requires very unconventional means to fight it. We find these enemeys amongst our very allies.

The scope of this is massive. We can excercise our might as the worlds greatest superpower and destroy worlds, or we can pick our fights and get the world to rally around us. Its a tough deal, and I am as frustrated as you are, but there is no one silver bullet solution. If I had it I would be a billionare right now. I think we are making huge strides with information technology, people amongst these regimes are beginning to see the truth. Westmoreland had it correct in Vietnam, if not in practice then in theory, its about hearts and minds. If we find a way to win the majority of those, then we find a solution to defeat these radical peices of debris.



Edited by - chadrewsky on Sep 22 2003 2:08 PM

Islam spread so rapidly because it appealed to the uneducated masses...There was no hiarchiel clergy, no chruch. It was a religion of nomads, and unforuneatly it creates a "cattle" like mentality amongst the masses... I agree with you right on about the Saudis, and some of the Kuwaiti's for that matter. These people are easily oppressed by the butt of a rifle and impressed by the upstart Colonel, or radical cleric that rids the region of the "opressive" Monarchs....(King Idris and the Shah to name two) for the heard...The problem is those upstart Colonels and Clerics become Khaddafi's and Ayotolla Khomeinais. We need more leaders in that region such as Anwar Sadat, remember he once also favored terrorism as well to oust British control of Egypt, and later became a great peacemaker. If we rid the world of the radical filth that takes the lives of such men, then I believe we will make strides towards finding a common ground with these peoples. Just how I feel...I am far from having all the answers.

But in reality fear can work to a degree. Reagan's spanking of Khadaffi in 1986 seemed to make him a non issue. I just think that fear needs to be unleashed tacticaly, controlled, calculated strikes, followed up by effective "spooky warefare" So I agree with you to a point, just not on making Baghdad into a glass factory, as cool as that would look.


Edited by - chadrewsky on Sep 22 2003 2:22 PM

Edited by - chadrewsky on Sep 22 2003 2:25 PM

"bull shit I did not say our military leader easily went to genocide. Unlike you sniper I dont look at a nuke and say lets use it. Nukes are weapon of last resort not first option."

It wasn't genocide Matt. It was war.

That's about all i have left nice to say to you, so i'll leave it at that.





"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Chad, you are entitled to your opinion, just as i am.

Obviously, we do not agree.

War by it's very nature is an inherently immoral act, therefore, i have no problem extending that to it's extreme to win on to total victory.

BTW, i never said carpet bombing would deter terrorism, i said it would deter nations, cause it will. Iraq, BTW, is a nation.

I clearly stated that in my opinion, terrorism can not be defeated by any means, only contained.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Edited by - m21 sniper on Sep 22 2003 2:50 PM

Viper...

"It's been only half a year in Iraq. Things have to be much better one year from now. If they aren't, you'll be proven right. But I'm hoping the plan can be executed because it has the potential to reshape the Middle East for the better in a big way."

Triple the in country man power, and the plan would have a chance.

With today's in country force levels, the plan has no chance at success. None.

They can't even secure the capital, let alone the 18 provinces and borders. Iraq is a magnet to which all the radicals will be drawn so long as we remain there. Short of an utterly massive infusion of manpower, there is nothing we can do to stop it.


"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Since no one is taking my word for it, i will allow my argument to be put forth succinctly by another of history's practitioners of genocide...

"War is cruelty and you cannot refine it. The crueler it is, the sooner it is over."

Gen William Tecumsah Sherman

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

War sux...And if your gonna engage in it, you might as well use all means at your disposal. I agree, there are no good guys in battle, only the ones left standing. I have never been shot at, never been in a combat situation, so its easy for me to say that...

I think you and I agree more than you know. As far as war is concerned, if they want to make war with the greatest country in human history and all she stands for, let them reap the whirlwind. Vietnam was a lesson I hope learned in how to not wage war.

This terrorism things muddles the point some...


It is hard for me to even fathom the point of view of an Arab or Persian. But I have really dug deep and studied them, read about them, and conversed with them. I am by no means an expert, but what I have generaly found to be true is that their religious heritage makes them prone to extremism, and the lack of a secular life makes them easily "hearded" with the times. If they were not pissed with the US, they would be pissed at somone else, the British, or even the Russians. They are a perfect case study to why church and state must be seperated. So if democracy can establish a foothold in that region, without a radical theocracy I think some changes can be made. Changes that would not occur under any other situation, even the fear of destruction.

Anyways...Boomer I must say, your Chiefs look sharp. Vermeil has had a winner everywhere he has coached, looks like KC is no exception. My Raiders are about to suffer another mile high public flogging at the hands of Shanahan, funny how two ex coaches have now come back to haunt Al Davis...lets make that loser the civilian administrator of Iraq.

NUKE THE BASTARDS!

I did not mean to dismiss your point of view, or imply that only i know what's going on Chad. I respect your point of view, and you deliver it well, even when we disagree.

I'm reassured to know there is quite a bit of common ground in our views. I just feel that if you look at our nation's history, the more savagely and less restricted the fight, the more certain the outcome will be victory.

In all the wars that we attempted to be 'moral' in our application of death and destruction, the result has WITHOUT FAIL, been ambiguous at best.

War is all about killing, destroying, and maiming. There is no room for moral civility. That's the diplomat's job. If we are at war at all, it is because they have ALREADY failed.

Another Sherman quote that bears some relevance here...

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell."

-General William T. Sherman, speech in 1880 from which we derive the phrase “War is hell.”

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Eagles look like crap, btw.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton

Hey Snipe..wasn't it your turn to feed mongo? lol

nothing like praying five times a day to the light of a nuclear sunset.

The Eagles will be ok...Its a long season. Not to worried about them. Raiders are standing in line for geretal and social security checks.

LOL, sorry, i'll go grab one of the Fedayeen out of his cage at Gitmo for ole' Mongo.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton