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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 05:07 
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Just read this on CNN...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/02/sprj.i ... index.html


JACKSONVILLE, North Carolina (CNN) -- It was the deadliest day of the Iraq war.

Eighteen Marines were killed in Nasiriya on March 23 as U.S. and coalition forces drove to Baghdad.

Six months later, those who fought alongside them told CNN they remain bitter that an undetermined number of their friends were killed -- not by Iraqis -- but by an Air Force A-10 they hoped was coming to their rescue.

Pinned down on all sides, the Marines were under fire from mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns. Outnumbered, they fought back, their dead and wounded scattered all along the aptly named "Ambush Alley."

With no air support yet, Marine Capt. Dan Wittnam was elated as he looked into the clear skies to see it coming -- a U.S. warplane called a Warthog for its ability to root out and kill tanks.

"The first thought that went through my mind was, 'Thank God, an A-10 was on station," he told CNN.

And then, "the earth went black from the dirt being kicked up. And a feeling of absolute, utter horror and disbelief."

Wittnam, the 33-year-old commander of Charlie Company, said the Warthog fired on the Marines.

The United States Central Command wouldn't comment on the incident other than to say it's still under investigation.

It has been under investigation for six months. It remains "open" and a report is expected to be released in weeks.

The 18 Marines account for 16 percent of all U.S. combat casualties during the war, according to Central Command's official records.

Just how many Marines died from the A-10 is unclear.

"I know it's more than a handful," said Staff Sgt. Troy Schielein, displaying a muscled forearm covered in tattoos of the names of 18 dead Marines. Schielein estimated the A-10 killed five to 10.

Road to Baghdad
On March 23, the battalion got orders to seize two key bridges to help open the road to Baghdad.

By sundown, they'd accomplished their mission.

Marines on the battlefield that day described for the first time what happened in between when they were under fire from the A-10's 30-millimeter, multi-barrel cannon that spits out 3,900 rounds per minute.

"You hear this big, 'Waaah,' and then all you see is, you know, the ground just explode," said Lance Cpl. Edward Castleberry of Mount Vernon, Washington.

Lance Cpl. David Fribley, 26, had enlisted following the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Castleberry said he shouted at Fribley to get in his Armored Assault Vehicle. Fast.


Clockwise from top left: Lance Cpl. Edward Castleberry, Sgt. William Schaefer, Capt. Dan Wittnam, Sgt. Jeremy Donaldson.
Fribley ran.

"I'm turning around, screaming at him, telling him to get in," said Castleberry, who was the AAV's driver.

Fribley almost made it.

"He was trying to climb in, he's got one arm trying to get in, and he just takes a huge round directly through his chest and it blew his whole back out," Castleberry said.

Marines said they are certain it was a U.S. warplane -- the Iraqis did not fly a single combat mission during the war.

Sgt. Jeremy Donaldson of Bangor, Maine, said one round just missed him.

"It came through my turret from an upper angle," he told CNN. "I'm confident it was an A-10. A 30-millimeter cannon, unless the Iraqis grew wings and hung off the clouds with a 30mm cannon."

Sgt. William Schaefer of Columbia, South Carolina, was evacuating dying and wounded Marines under withering Iraqi fire when the A-10 opened up and hit the transmission, he said. The AAV eventually crashed into a pole.

Schaefer keeps a snapshot of an armor-piercing A-10 round, made of depleted uranium, which was found inside his destroyed vehicle.

Those on the battlefield that day said the A-10 pilot -- still not identified -- was told there were no U.S. troops in the area.

The pilot reported back that he saw an Iraqi convoy heading for the city. So the ground controller -- who was never told Charlie Company was there -- gave the pilot the green light to fire.

Marines insist the pilot should have recognized the tub-shaped AAVs as U.S. assault vehicles. Only the Marine Corps has them.

"There is nothing like an AAV," said Schielein, of Peoria, Illinois. "I mean, the biggest vehicle that the Iraqis even had was a pick-up truck with a machine gun in the back."

Even though sources told CNN the A-10 was under anti-aircraft fire and performing evasive maneuvers, Marines said they cannot forget -- or forgive.

"If I could actually find the A-10 pilot, the one that did the shooting, I'd probably break both his knees," said Cpl. Michael Brown of Summit Station, Ohio.

Pentagon correspondents Jamie McIntyre and Barbara Starr and CNN cameraman David Allbritton contributed to this report.



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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 06:26 
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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 06:43 
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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 15:08 
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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 15:37 
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<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> <S but I'm sure the Marines have never made a mistake right. MORE IFF PLEASE!!

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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Edited by - boomer on Oct 03 2003 2:37 PM

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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 16:01 
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[quote]
Just read this on CNN...


Marines insist the pilot should have recognized the tub-shaped AAVs as U.S. assault vehicles. Only the Marine Corps has them.

"There is nothing like an AAV," said Schielein, of Peoria, Illinois. "I mean, the biggest vehicle that the Iraqis even had was a pick-up truck with a machine gun in the back."

---------

Some major problems are popping up in this FF incident. Pilots should be able to ID any US track or vehicle. Marines should have a FAC and damn sure some radio to call in CAS. Marines in AARs reported more than a few problems with comms.

Marines are part of the Forces. If they were to blow away some Air Force types by accident am sure the USAF would be more than a tad upset.

Finally, the USAF was pretty quick to investigate and then onto the court-martial stage for those Reserve or Guard Viper pilots in Afghan over the Canuks being killed in another FF incident.

Point being, are Marines worth less than Canadians for an investigation??

Jack


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 22:38 
There is an OBVIOUS problem with BLUFOR vehicle recognition in the USAF.

This shit happens entirely too regularly.

An AMTRAK looks NOTHING like ANY OPFOR vehicle i am aware of, and is absolutely a gigantic hard to miss(as in ID) track.


I hate to insult anyone, but it seems to me that USAF pilots need to do some flashcarding of 'shoot-no shoot' vehicles.


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2003, 22:56 
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your right about the AMTRAK it is fairly unique, which is saying something in the world of armor where everything tends to look alike from a distance.

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 00:09 
It's also about twice the size of any other APC in service anywhere.

Hard to mistake it for a BRDM or BMP.

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Edited by - m21 sniper on Oct 03 2003 11:09 PM


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 00:11 
Just for the sake of fairness, i should point out that Army Aviators have had their fair share of fratricide. Sometimes these are legitimate cases of 'shit happens', but i don't know about this one.

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 07:25 
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A couple years back I spent a lot of time in the vault with our intell guys. I jknow for a fact, at least in our unit, that our pilots spend quite a bit of time doing the flash card bit. FRATRICIDE JUST PLAIN FRIKKIN' SUCKS ! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 07:28 
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Het Snipe can you maybe drum up a picture of that there particular vehicle that is the point of discussion. Its nice to put a name with a face. And no you silly goose I know what an A10 looks like.

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 10:04 
No problem.

Couldn't find any actual pictures, but here's a link to a scale model.
Should be good enough...

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/acy/acy1344.htm

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Edited by - m21 sniper on Oct 04 2003 09:06 AM


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 13:38 
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I'LL TALK TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO WAS A LVT COMMANDER IN DESERT STORM SEE IF HE CAN SEND ME A PICTURE OF HIS IN DESERT PAINT.

SOUNDS REALLY LIKE THE CONTROLLERS DIDNT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON,THE MARINES GOING TO FAST AND THE FOG OF WAR.

AFTER THE 1ST GULFWAR DIDNT THEY COME UP WITH A BEACON TYPE DEVICE TO PUT ON TOP OF THE VEHICLES ,BUT THE DOD DIDNT WANT TO SPEND THE$$$$$?THAT THE PILOT OF FRIENDLY FORCES WOULD PICK UP ON THEIR HUD.

SOMETHING WENT REALLY WRONG HERE!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2003, 21:26 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Just read this on CNN...


Marines insist the pilot should have recognized the tub-shaped AAVs as U.S. assault vehicles. Only the Marine Corps has them.

"There is nothing like an AAV," said Schielein, of Peoria, Illinois. "I mean, the biggest vehicle that the Iraqis even had was a pick-up truck with a machine gun in the back."

---------

Some major problems are popping up in this FF incident. Pilots should be able to ID any US track or vehicle. Marines should have a FAC and damn sure some radio to call in CAS. Marines in AARs reported more than a few problems with comms.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Yeah, I'll tell you what the major problem is. Monday morning quarterbacking by 'experts' and the media dramatizing a story by only interviewing those who were on the receiving end. I feel for those Marines who were there, and nothing will bring back those that were killed. Why aren't any Marine or Air Force brass quoted? Maybe because it's still an open investigation. Until the report lists its findings, maybe the rest of us should just sit back and have a nice cup of shut the fuck up, huh Jack?

How the hell are you supposed to I.D. an AAV from a T-55 or a BMP or a pickup truck from 10,000+ feet? It's a friggin' DOT on the ground, even looking through space-stabilized binos. It would be difficult to identify even with a targeting pod. The average grunt doesn't understand that concept, and from his vantage point, I can see why. At zero feet AGL, that AAV is huge and can't be mistaken for anything else.

Since you place your faith in the media, the CNN report stated that there was a FAC involved - it mentions 'ground controller' and that the pilot "was told there were no U.S. troops in the area".

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Marines are part of the Forces. If they were to blow away some Air Force types by accident am sure the USAF would be more than a tad upset.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

No shit Sherlock. Thanks for stating the obvious. This is a lose-lose situation. Fratricide happens, and it is the cost of doing war. There is no way to make up for it, but you are oversimplifying a situation that you obviously don't know shit about - just look at your source...CNN.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Finally, the USAF was pretty quick to investigate and then onto the court-martial stage for those Reserve or Guard Viper pilots in Afghan over the Canuks being killed in another FF incident.

Point being, are Marines worth less than Canadians for an investigation??
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Jack, I have agreed with you on things in the past, and disagreed with you on others, but that last sentence gives me a bile taste in my mouth.

I don't remember what you said your background was, but I think I remember something about flying tactical military aircraft at some point. I am almost certain now that is not the case. Your perspective on this is not one of an aviator. If it was, you wouldn't be second guessing a pilot's visual I.D. of a speck on the ground, especially when your buddies at CNN said the pilot was cleared hot on them. Your attitude is almost consistently cynical, and I would have to think you either washed out of pilot training, were a REMF in the service, a civilian who couldn't medically qualify, or something along those lines. You're a wanna-be. Enjoy tooting your own horn here amongst those that may read your crap and believe whatever little world you created for yourself. If you attempted to do the same at a fighter pilot's O-club you'd be a bloody, neutered mess.

Obviously you'd rather have the investigators play the blame game, spin the bottle and see whose name it lands on. That would ensure a quick end to the investigation, and everyone could go home. There is NO WAY to compare the two fratricide incidents you mention. Last time I checked, you weren't at either of them, so you don't know any more than the rest of us. To have a farse of an investigation instead of a thorough one would dishonor those who were killed as well as those who survived. I am not implying that the investigation into the Canadian incident was not thorough, I am simply saying that they are so far removed from each other that one may take much longer to sift through than the other.

I am done here. While the war was going on, I attempted to explain to some very upset Brits on this site why fratricide continues to happen even with all the technology we have. Those who have been on the receiving end of blue-on-blue have been to hell and back and their lives will never be the same. To allow the media to turn their and the deceased families' pain into a circus so that they can 'generate' news is reprehensible. People, turn on your shit filters and don't let them lead you down the primrose path.

Like I said, I am done here. Sniper, do what you will with this message, and get rid of my login name. I am also a bit surprised you jumped on the visual I.D. bandwagon - you know better.

SGT GOOSE, as usual you hit the nail right on the head. EPLARS and SADL are at least two systems I am aware of that would have helped prevent this, but unfortunately they are not currently funded.

Jack, why don't you type something useful for once, and write your congressman about funding systems that will help prevent fratricide in the future? Do the rest of the forum a favor and stop posting on the crap you read in your history books, because it's obvious you don't know

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Jack<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

shit.



[/quote]

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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2003, 00:12 
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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2003, 10:33 
Air2, you are entitled to get fired up about this. I expected one of the pilots to get pretty worked up. I just didn't expect it to be you!

But it's cool, i understand it's your profession on the defensive here, and that because of that you may take things personally.

I maybe should know better, but like i said, fratricide is something that happens with all aviators, and even ground troops, and it is high time we spent some serious $ to correct the issue.

While i have never put eyes on a tank from 10,000AGL, i have certainly viewed them from the same distance through optics(albiet i was at AGL with them and not doing 300kts).

SO it seems to me that whatever you guys are using for ID, it needs improvement, lots of improvement.

I hope you will calm down and realize we are friends, and are not looking to lay blame at the feet of all pilots, but something went way wrong here.

Maybe it was the FAC, the pilot, perhaps even the ground commander, but that does not change the fact that there is something way wrong with how we do business, and it needs fixing.

In any case, i'm not removing you from the roster at a-10.org, cause i for one consider you a personal friend. Take a week, call me some names, and then please come back. ;)

If you do leave, you will be missed, and i will be saddened by your departure.



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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2003, 16:23 
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[quote]
[I am almost certain now that is not the case. Your perspective on this is not one of an aviator. If it was, you wouldn't be second guessing a pilot's visual I.D. of a speck on the ground, especially when your buddies at CNN said the pilot was cleared hot on them. Your attitude is almost consistently cynical, and I would have to think you either washed out of pilot training, were a REMF in the service, a civilian who couldn't medically qualify, or something along those lines. You're a wanna-be. ------

3,400 odd Navy hours and some in A-4s for starters.

My basic points were as I stated. Marines lack of radios really sucks. FF sucks also.

I still fly close form with a retired Marine chopper pilot from Nam. He has an RV-4. It ain't like I don't know aviation. He also knew some Osprey test pilots and he hates the sucker. Some of the Osprey bucks might had prevented this incident.

I also agree most investigations are driven by the Flag ranks. As has been pointed out from the Gulf War. The front line troops need an electronic beacon of some sort.

This wasn't the first article I have read on the incident.

I also brought up the Viper FF incident in Afghan. There were 14 odd FF incidents by then. Why pick on that one then? Some of which included American troops.

Granted, it's the fog of war. We also live in a high tech digital age which should help ID the good guys on the front lines.

Hell I was up today, checking my EZ. Then spent 5 odd MX hours changing oil and plugs. If you got an O-235 around, I know the suckers pretty well by now. Installed a Rose ignition couple of months ago and love the system.

ack


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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2003, 18:19 
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AIR2MUD,

IMO, YOU're the one that needs to wake up and take a reality check. If you knew the first freaking thing about Jack, you'd show a little more respect seeing as how you're no more than an FNG Cherry Hog driver, you nitwit. Tell you one thing, from the few times I was involved in an actual CAS, my biggest fear was insuring I didn't commit frat. I showed up at one area of Afghan where the friendlies were under fire, I could simultaneously see the battle happening under the NVGs while hearing it happen each time the GFAC keyed his mike. As I was arriving, the GFAC asked me if I see the firefight, I reply affirm, he says "copy, I need bombs on the southern side of my posit." Problem is, he hadn't told me the general area he was, or better yet, wasn't. Without knowing that, and without even following a modified CAS protocol, I didn't have a warm fuzzy about laying down munitions yet, and I told him so. He pushed me again to just "hit this particular area." But I couldn't do that. It was night, there was no moon so the NVGs didn't do a damn; I realize you're in the sh!t down there, but unless you throw a mark, or let me drop some illum, I can't safely employ with confidence. He let my flight drop illum, and we were able to employ a few minutes later. Even then, with gun first, I hit where he told me to and right off on the pull-up that first pass, I keyed the GFAC "how were the hits?", and initially got NO response, just dead air. That's the worst feeling in the world. Query again, nothing. A couple of seconds, he comes back with "good hits, good hits....had to change out a battery back there....." Point is, it's better to take a pause and get some of the basics down, such as who's where, rather than let the extremis ground situation pull you into cutting corners. I'm not saying that this is what happened in the case with the Marines, I'm simply saying that this was the initial feeling I had in my situation, and I had to "throttle back" just a bit and make sure at least a few of the Is were dotted and Ts were crossed prior to letting iron fly.

So AIR2MUD, realize that mistakes can be made all around in frat cases. The onus is ON THE PILOT to make sure he knows what he's shooting at PRIOR to letting ordnance fly, because once I pull that trigger/hit the pickle button, I AND I ALONE are responsible for where those munitions end up.

So before you climb your high horse and begin slinging feces, think about that.


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2003, 14:55 
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Type 7,
I'm not sure where I fall on this issue. I agree with A2M that it's tough to VID a vehicle from 10K' but I also agree that it's our job to know what we're pickling on. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but A2M isn't a FNG Cherry Hogdriver. Snipe, correct me if I'm mistaken but I think he's a former Hawg squadron DO and a patchwearer. If that's the case, Type 7 owes an aplogy at least on the FNG comment.

Cheers...

"Warthog 30 has left the building..."


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2003, 15:18 
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[quote]


Jack, why don't you type something useful for once, and write your congressman about funding systems that will help prevent fratricide in the future? Do the rest of the forum a favor and stop posting on the crap you read in your history books, because it's obvious you don't know

--------

Actually I asked my Congressman Roscoe Barlett where he hell was the missing 2.3 Trillion bucks from the Pentagon? Barlett loves high tech starting with NMD. He hasn't got back to me.

BTW, I do debate professional historians for kicks.

Attacking the messenger is a time honored tradition. I brought the Viper FF incident up because there are some really pissed off Reserve/Guard drivers more than upset at them being singled out.

Sure it's a digital age and forum. I know what I have done.

Jack


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2003, 15:44 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but A2M isn't a FNG Cherry Hogdriver. Snipe, correct me if I'm mistaken but I think he's a former Hawg squadron DO and a patchwearer. If that's the case, Type 7 owes an aplogy at least on the FNG comment.

Cheers...

"Warthog 30 has left the building..."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

W30,

I could be getting the login names crossed and could very well be wrong on that. If so, consider my apology extended on that issue.

T7


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2003, 15:58 
Air2Mudd isn't really a new guy anymore, he's a 1st Luitenant in the Air National Guard. I don't see anything at all wrong with being 'just' an ANG fighter pilot. Those guys fight in combat too.

Anyway, i've met him and i think he's a real standup guy that was just venting. Happens all the time when controversial issues are discussed.

Type 7, i can say with reasonable confidence that if you met Air2 you would have no qualms about him flying wing with you. He's a pretty sharp guy.


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Edited by - m21 sniper on Oct 06 2003 3:02 PM


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2003, 17:52 
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Joined: 27 Oct 2002, 00:46
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Location: NAS Norfolk VA
Air2Mud can fly with me anytime.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2003, 19:42 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Type 7, i can say with reasonable confidence that if you met Air2 you would have no qualms about him flying wing with you. He's a pretty sharp guy.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I certainly don't doubt you. I don't know the guy personally, so I can't make any hard character judgement; I just simply disagreed with bashing Jack. On the rest of the issue, I understand his frustrations with stories that "rush to judgement" on situations, I certainly hate to see that too. I just felt that his post seemed to neglect the cockpit responsibility factor that's involved here too. Or maybe it was there the whole time, just not necesarily mentioned. Either way, I've nothing personal at all with A2M, just a simple disagreement of ideas regards the aforementioned info.

T7


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