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PostPosted: 31 Aug 2003, 21:14 
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Does anyone no the reasons the YA-10 beat out the YA-9 in th AX competition? The vauge reasons i found were the YA-10 had better manuverability, easier loading/off loading of munitions, and better surviveability due to engine placement, and the use of the already proven TF-34 engine. If anyone has anything more specific please shed some enlightenment to this malnourished sheetmetal brain!


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PostPosted: 31 Aug 2003, 23:57 
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There was one guy who frequented this site that worked on the A-10 in its beginning and can answer your question very comprehensively; however, he left(in a peculiar way I might add).


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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2003, 04:26 
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i have a 11 pages on the subject - if i get an hour or four i'll type them up..


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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2003, 03:29 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
i have a 11 pages on the subject - if i get an hour or four i'll type them up..
Thank you!

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2003, 17:13 
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Including all the stuff you listed above other things were engine maintaince, engines to close together/low to the ground, the height the aircraft stood on it gear.

I have looked through a lot of documents and from my research I belive the biggest reason the A-9 lost was they had still not figured-out where (how) they were going to install the GAU-8A in the A-9! The A-10 was ready when GE was and that was a big factor...just my opinin.

Ugly but well hung!
http://www.warthogpen.com


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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2003, 18:08 
"There was one guy who frequented this site that worked on the A-10 in its beginning and can answer your question very comprehensively; however, he left(in a peculiar way I might add)."

I think EzJack pissed him off. I emailed Stress, but he never responded.

I hope nothing happened to him...

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton


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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2003, 19:05 
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Sniper he always did blow in and out with the wind but I'm with you on hoping everything is OK with him. I will look through my old emails and see if I can contact him but I may have lost his (top secret) addy when I got my new puter.

Ugly but well hung!
http://www.warthogpen.com


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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2003, 20:06 
LOL, ok dice.

I sent him an email via the board, but i don't know if he gets those. Others have had problems with that in the past here with emails not going through.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton


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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2003, 21:25 
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the A-10 was ready for Avenger even before GE, remember they scabbed the M61 into the protos till the Gau was available, or was that just a money thing in case of an accident?

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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PostPosted: 03 Sep 2003, 02:59 
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if i get time @ the weekend i'll put together a webpage or 3 on my site along with photos etc :)


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PostPosted: 03 Sep 2003, 04:35 
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[quote]
"I think EzJack pissed him off. I emailed Stress, but he never responded.

----------

Tough titty if they can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

Although I do try to piss off Flag ranks and politicians for starters.

Jack


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PostPosted: 03 Sep 2003, 12:28 
I wasn't chastising you EZ, just stating an possilbe theory.

Don't get your panties in a bunch sailor. ;)

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2003, 13:34 
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I started work on the A-10 in 1975 and from my memory the A-9 was said to be a bear to load and maint was not all that accessable.
It was terribly low to the ground and did not have the survivability of the A-10, being engines in fusalage.
I had a great 21 year career with the 'hog and no regrets!
You all have a WARTHOGGLY good day!!!!

Gary L. Coots


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2003, 20:17 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I started work on the A-10 in 1975 and from my memory the A-9 was said to be a bear to load and maint was not all that accessable.
It was terribly low to the ground and did not have the survivability of the A-10, being engines in fusalage.
I had a great 21 year career with the 'hog and no regrets!
You all have a WARTHOGGLY good day!!!!

Gary L. Coots
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Your a lucky man, as i'v had to endure F-111's,F-15's,crappy F-16's (dont like em'), and other stuff.When first assighned to work A-10's at McClellan i was mad as hell because i had come from Upper Heyford and had 2 solid F-111 years with USAFE. I quickly learned otherwise as the A-10 was sooo much eaiser to work (elbow room).Not only that, but the A-10 comunity its self seemed to be less show and more go. I into work, not "brown nosing" or talkin smack about my A/C type.


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2003, 21:45 
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I truely miss the A-10.
It was easy work, most of the time. The community of
Hoggers is pretty tight and loyal to the Ugly-Duckling of the USAF.
21 years of the A-10 makes it a family member.


Gary L. Coots


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PostPosted: 06 Sep 2003, 05:22 
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One interesting thing about the A-9 was that it had the ability to extend the spoilers of one wing while turning the rudder at the same time, which made the whole aircraft turn very quickly. Something the A-10 might have benifited from....

I wonder, I wonder....
DOITORDIE

p.s. leave the f-111's alone....


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PostPosted: 06 Sep 2003, 18:04 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
One interesting thing about the A-9 was that it had the ability to extend the spoilers of one wing while turning the rudder at the same time, which made the whole aircraft turn very quickly. Something the A-10 might have benifited from....

I wonder, I wonder....
DOITORDIE

p.s. leave the f-111's alone....
The F-111 was my first jet, alot of work indeed but awsome as a tactical bomber. When you compare it to to the newer Tornado, F-15E
the F-111 still beats em' in speed, range, bomb load, and arguebly more accurate with the Pave Tact system. I worked the E and EF's at Upper Heyford, The E model did not have Pave Tact but was still accurate enough to tag Iraqi tanks with 5oolb bombs. It's my opinion that we really havent replaced the F-111 as a true tachtical bomber. The FB-22 perposal which is already under flack would fit the bill, as renge and payload are as good or better then the Ardvark's, and with stealth and modern avionic's this plane would prove very deadly indeed. I did not mean or intend to pick on the F-111, infact due to the extensive work that they required, I am a much better, capable, more confident mechanic then I ever would have if i'd cut my teeth on F-15's, F-16's, or A-10's. These are all execellent A/C but due to design flatly require less maintenance per flight hour. Those Aussie's were very smart to snap up all those surplus 111's and Pave Tact systems (I dont know if I should call it a pod?) as they paid Austrailian pennies on the dollar for all those spare's, equipment, and A/C. When the closed the program office at McClellan AFB. there were about 100 people present at the ceremony, and there were more then a few tears around as alot of folks with that over the years have commited so much of there lives to came to an end.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2003, 20:26 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
One interesting thing about the A-9 was that it had the ability to extend the spoilers of one wing while turning the rudder at the same time, which made the whole aircraft turn very quickly. Something the A-10 might have benifited from....

I wonder, I wonder....
DOITORDIE

p.s. leave the f-111's alone....
Dont forget the A-10 pilot has the very handy Deceleron's that provide similar turning capabilities.



<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2003, 07:46 
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hey samuel man.... don't worry i ment it more as a joke then anything...
us ausies have a different strategy when it coems to our airforce.. and if a plane can match the f-111 for speed, range and payload and be stealthy aswell it would be a very great asset for australia... its exactly what were looking for to replace the f-111.

yse i know the a-10 has a similer ability but the a-9 took the concept even further.

I'm sorry if i offended you
ivan


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PostPosted: 24 Sep 2003, 15:53 
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Hi Guy's

I'm pleased that I found this site as I really love the A 10's.
I'm from Helchteren (Belgium) and we have a firerange for F 16's Mirage, Tornado's and A 10's. So, I see and hear the A 10's almost every day. When I have the time I go to the firerange as close as I can get . The view is great!!!
Anyway, I was wondering from what airbase they come from. Must be from Germany as Helchteren is very close to the German border(and the dutchborder also)
My 3 year old son, loves the A 10's also,he can hear the diffrence in sound, F 16 or A 10. When the A 10's fly over, he always comes to get me, A10's DADDY!!!!!! And then we go outside to look at the very low flying A10's.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2003, 17:42 
Welcome aboard buddy.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2003, 02:06 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Welcome aboard buddy.

"If we are not victorious, let no man return alive."

Gen George S. Patton
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Well after a lengthy wait a yellow envelope arrived from HQ AFMC/HO (History Office)! After reading the actual 1973 report on the AX selection process I have the answers as to why the A-9 lost out.
1. Fairchild-Republic spent $41M (YA-10) vs $29M (YA-9) on their prototype efforts. This meant that the YA-10 was much closer to production standard as compared to the Northop A/C and presented a significant reduction of risk to the Air Force.
2. The YA-10 was easier to load, and because of wing design had additional stations opposed to the YA-9.
3. The YA-10 A/C survivability was judged superior in the placement of engines, twin verticals, and simpler easier to maintain build design.
4. Overall the test Pilots perferred the YA-10 over the YA-9.
5. DOD concerns over consolidation of aerospace industry and distribution of industrial base. (As Fairchild-Republic was an east coast company)
Before we lable the YA-9 a lame-duck it should be noted that the two A/C were rated excellent in the CAS role. I quote the A-10 Close Air Support Aircraft: From Development to Production 1970-1976 "The trials indicated that there were no significant differences in weapons delivery accuracy between the A-9 and A-10". The A-10 held the avantage in 15-degree strafing profile, while the A-9 bested the A-10 on the 45-degree strafing profile. The Air Force was lucky in that like the YF-16/YF-17 program they had two very capable A/C to choose from; Fairchild-Republic's attention to detail,unconventional design thinking, and stronger commitment ($41M) won the day. But I feel that if the YA-10 had fallen thru the Northrop YA-9 would have been a very lethal A/C indeed.


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PostPosted: 31 Oct 2003, 08:52 
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Erik

Welcome, I am also in Belgium, but stationed in the southern part of the country, near Mons.

The A-10s you see are most likely from Spangdahlem Air Base in Germany, the 81st Fighter Squadron. They are the only A-10s left in theater....

Cheers! M2


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PostPosted: 03 Nov 2003, 14:11 
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YA9 vs YA-10...

The differences between the two aircraft started with their external shape. Where the Northrop design followed conventional fighter practice, with a shoulder wing, single fin and engines mounted close to the fuselage, the YA-10A resembled no previous combat aircraft apart from a few last-days-in-the-bunker German projects from 1945. The engines were mounted on the rear fuselage, airliner-style, there were twin fin and rudders and the main landing gear retracted into pods under the wing. The low-slung YA-9A was a design of elegant solidity, with its engines faired smoothly into the fuselage and the fin sweeping upwards from the aft body; its rival was a gangly beast, its long, skinny fuselage and broad wing improbably mated atop a stalky undercarriage.

Another material difference between the two aircraft was the choice of engine. Two high-bypass turbofans in the right thrust bracket were available in the USA. Fairchild selected the General Electric TF34, already under development for the US Navy's Lockheed S-3A antisubmarine warfare aircraft. Northrop chose a smaller engine, the Avco Lycoming ALF 502, which had been launched as a private venture in 1969. It received the military designation YF102LD-100. It delivered 15 per cent less thrust than the TF34, but was 23 percent lighter and only just over half as long, It was based on the world's first high bypass turbofan, the PLFI, which had run in late 1963. The main selling point of the F-102 was that it was derived from the T55 turboshaft, which had a long and distinguished record of peacetime and combat service in military helicopters. The YA-9A's cleaner shape largely made up for its lower installed thrust; the mission performance of the two aircraft was very similar, both meeting the specification, but the YA-10A would do so at slightly higher weights. Both contestants, though, were required to provide performance data with either engine.

Control Surfaces
Both A-X contenders featured combined aileron/speedbrake surfaces on their outer wings; these resembled conventional ailerons, but were split into upper and lower panels. When opened, they produced a powerful deceleration effect with virtually no trim change, unlike a fighter-type dorsal or ventral brake. The YA-9A went somewhat further than its rival, featuring a unique side-force control (SFC) system. This linked the speedbrakes and the very large rudder, and could be engaged or disengaged from the cockpit. If the pilot commanded a move to the left, the SFC system would deflect the rudder to the right, opposite to the usual direction. At the same time, the left speedbrake would open, preventing the aircraft from turning to the right. Instead, the thrust of the rudder would move the aircraft bodily to the left, without turning or banking. With SFC, the pilot could track a ground target without constantly worrying about the bank angle and fuselage direction changes that accompany a conventional turn; Northrop estimated that SFC could double the tracking accuracy of a typical attack.

more to come...


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PostPosted: 03 Nov 2003, 14:13 
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...


The fly-off competition called for both A-X candidates to be delivered by road to Edwards AFB, where they would make their first flights in the hands of company test pilots before being handed over to a specially formed USAF joint test force (JTF). The Air Force evaluation was to start in late October 1972. The YA-1OA was the first to fly, talking to the air in the hands of Howard 'Sam' Nelson on May 10, 1972. Its Northrop rival followed 20 days later. The second YA-10A flew on July 2 1, and the second YA-9A joined the program on August 23. The manufacturers had five months to unearth and fix any operationally significant problems in the design, because the rules of the contest prohibited any design changes during the JTF evaluation unless safety was in jeopardy. The only externally visible change concerned the YA-10A. Not surprisingly, stalling the aircraft sent turbulent airflow into the TF34s, which responded by stalling themselves. A fixed slot was fitted to the inboard wing to smooth out the airflow. The second YA-10A, too, was involved in the only incident of the test program, blowing both main tires in a heavy landing and sustaining minor damage to its nose wheel.

These and other problems had all been taken care of by the time the JTF took the four aircraft over, on October 24. The JTF was a new type of Organization, designed specifically to handle the competitive evaluation. It comprised test pilots from USAF Systems Command, which is responsible for the engineering and procurement of all USAF aircraft, and from TAC, which would use the A-X. Other experts were assigned to the JTF from the USAF Logistics Command and the Air Training Command, and their task would @e to assess the maintenance requirements of the competing aircraft. All JTF team members worked and reported on both contestants. The evaluation was planned to include 123hr flying for each type, but eventually the YA-9As flew 146hr in 92 sorties, while the Fairchild aircraft logged 138.Shr in 87 sorties. Just under half the time was spent firing 20, 000 rounds from the M61 cannon and releasing 700 'iron' bombs - no guided weapons were used at this stage - while about a third of the flying hours were devoted to performance and handling tests. Flight tests were followed by a week of maintenance demonstrations.

Politically, there was pressure on the Air Force to select Fairchild. The aircraft industry in New York State had historically been dominated by Republic and Grumman. The latter, in 1972, was in serious trouble with the F-14 program, and there were doubts about its future. Fairchild's Republic division had also been the largest single subcontractor on the Boeing SST program, scrapped the previous year. Unless Fairchild was awarded the A-X, Long Island's aerospace industry might suffer permanent damage. It was not exactly possible to say the same about Northrop and Los Angeles.

yet more to come...


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