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http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123008020

Ugly But Well Hung

I can see a bad ADI that slipped through the supply system. It sucks when a good Hawg driver dies but it would be inexcuseable if it was because of equipment failure that could have been avoided. It will be interesting to see. Our condolensces to anyone here at the WT that lost a freind.

By this time tomorrow I shall have gained either a pearage or Westminster Abbey........Nelson

_________________
YGBSM !

We lost an A-10 due to spats while under the goggles when I was at Eielson around 96-97'.
Lucky for the pilot he punched as soon as he didn't know where up and down were and it saved his life.
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

My prayers also go to the driver of that Hog. It is truley a sad day when we lose any AF pilots.

Though blaming the crash on a pre TCTO ADI IMHO is a mistake. They should have continued looking for root cause instead of chalking it up to that. Realize that I don't condine non compliance with AF TCTO's but that can't be the sole cause.

I'm wondering what onboard data system he's talking about as in my experience none of it survives the crash. I remember one time they had asked us to try and obtain any info of what was left of the LASTE computer and it just wasn't possible.
It's possible they can tell whether the ADI was malfunctioning my comparing the witness marks on the ADI ball created on impact to what they figure the impact attitude of the aircraft.
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

I wont second guess, the Pilot, or the Support Crews for the aircraft. I will just try to present all the tools needed for Instrument conditions. and how they can cause a success or a failurein that first 5-30 seconds of flight.

Spacial Disorientation will kill a 4000Hr pilot just as easily as it will kill a 400Hr pilot. Unfortunately the pilot had it happen at the worst possible time. Take off and a few hundred feet above the Terrain. I estimate he had less than 20 seconds to figure out what happaned, and how to correct it. My guess he was less than 1/4 mile out and around 220-240 Knots and a 10-20 Degree Vertical error.

Most important. And the most dangerous at night and in the weather. Pitch, Roll, Rudder Trim not Centered. This will severely delay your reaction time. This is all based on the assumption that the aircraft will fly true. The last pilot that flew the jet may have trimmed for an inbalance of Fuel, Stores, and Style. To fly another pilots settings can be good or bad. You cant relieve a previous flights trend on your configuration.

Take off is the time that Trim is set and adjusted as well as the Following instruments are in working order:


Angle of attack Indicator: Tells exactly what the aircraft is doing in Pitch

Verticle velocity Indicator: Gives you your Feet Per Minute Climb/Decent schedule Trend

Attitude Director indicator: shows the Aircrafts positional information in 3 axis

Altimeter: Shows current Barometric Altitude indicator. Failure to adjust for Baro can be deadly, but are typically only 100-200 Feet of deviation from true Barometric deck data.

Airspeed Indicator: With Fixed power you can see the slow down trend in a climb,(dependent on Angle of Climb. Any acceleration on fixed power can be attributed to level Flight (less drag production) or a Decent) All traits will also be indicated in the Altimeter and can be seen in the Vertical Velocity indicator.

Standby compass: will indicate a turn

Heading Steer Indicator: Indicated Course and Heading Deviation (although Cross winds and Tracking control can provide false Indicators and are much slower to detect Course Deviation)

The HUD data information Incorportes many of these listed above.
Betty, Radar Altimeter etc...

Even if you were paying attention to all of the above, Something distracting you for Five seconds is the differnece between life or death. Map explosion, Comfort adjustment, Head out of the feedbag, looking for landmarks or getting ready to nav to a Beacon VOR/ADF, outer marker etc.... Looking at Departure Plates, Flight plan etc.

As a flight lead your compounded with your Wingmens flight profile as well. Thats a big Helmet load to carry in the cocpit.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Edited by - mrmudd on Jun 27 2004 08:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My prayers also go to the driver of that Hog. It is truley a sad day when we lose any AF pilots.

Though blaming the crash on a pre TCTO ADI IMHO is a mistake. They should have continued looking for root cause instead of chalking it up to that. Realize that I don't condine non compliance with AF TCTO's but that can't be the sole cause.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I don't believe the article blamed the ADI. IT said it was "possibly" a part of the cause that lead to the pilots Spacial Disorientation which in turn is "possibly" what lead to the Pilots accident.

This Accident review is not over. This was an interim Report, which allows the Military todefine status onthe Pilot, and the Airframe. The investigation will still undergo Review. But in the Mean Time the Unit can continue on with their Operational and training commitments from the Standown, and the Family and friends can recieve the closure that they are do.

There are two concurrent investigations in a USAF accident aftermath.

One is conducted by what is known as the "safety" board. The safety board does not assign blame. It determines cause, for the purpose of preventing other accidents.

The second investigation is conducted by what is called the "collateral" board. It does assign blame, since something or someone has to be responsible for the accident.

If no mechanical or other factors were involved, then this accident would come down to pilot error, which may be what that quote was referring to.

The phrase "accident board" is probably most often applied to the safety board, since that investigation is typically the larger in terms of personnel and scope.

Safety board results are releasable, the collateral board findings are not. Disciplinary recommendations for action come from the collateral board only.

Collateral board findings are not necessarily a "death sentence". USAF commanders can and do ignore those findings if they disagree with them.

"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

Where does the reference article mention the ADI as causal?

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

It Doesnt, The ADI comment is speculation from the above posters as a primary cause to lead to the mishap for a primary IFR Avionics device.

My explanation is to say that their are several instruments to cross check and corelate with in the cockpit to Gain trust and confidence in your bearings. In order to take corrective action. My statement also says that The article only left it up to speculation becasue of the DAta recorder and the pilots Flight Inputs. I also added in personal opinion on the workload on a pilot during this critical phase of flight The first 30 seconds of Wheels up Climb out...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>General Eichhorn said he also found evidence that weather and an unknown instrument malfunction may have contributed to the crash.

Weather conditions the night of the crash made it difficult to see the horizon, and other pilots said there was little or no horizon from which to reference the aircraft’s attitude. Without exterior references, because of darkness and weather, Captain Scheer had to depend almost completely on cockpit instruments.

Captain Scheer’s flight information was captured by an onboard data system. The board president said he believes he was also dealing with an unknown instrument problem since Captain Scheer’s behavior is consistent with a pilot dealing with a serious, disorienting issue.

These two contributing factors severely affected Captain Sheer’s ability to fly the aircraft using either outside references or his instruments and led to the spatial disorientation that caused the crash, investigators said. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>



"The power to Destroy the planet, is insignifigant to the power of the Air Force----Mudd Vader

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Though blaming the crash on a pre TCTO ADI IMHO is a mistake. They should have continued looking for root cause instead of chalking it up to that. Realize that I don't condine non compliance with AF TCTO's but that can't be the sole cause.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I think JMF was thinking in the same lines I was, I remember this happening and everyone here going nuts making sure that all of our A/C's ADI's were all the newest version that a recent TCTO called for. They discovered that the aircraft that crashed had an unmodified / old style ADI in it. It was a big stink here at Nellis and we got jumped on by everyone to make sure our jets were good by pulling every ADI from our jets and visually verifying they were the right model.
It truly is sad that we lost what I am sure was a great warior and leader but we still have to remember we are in a buisness of war and what we do is dangerous work. We will remember, but also we will keep the fight strong and pround and fly on to victory no matter the cost.

God Bless the USA

Chili

Can someone bring me up to speed on what TCTO you're talking about as I've been out of the loop for a couple of years. When I left the A-10 biz, the 8806 ADI had the NVIS mod and that's the only mod I'm aware of that was performed on that particular ADI and it was the only one with the NVIS mod.
There were some quality issues with the mod that were creating failures, but when I left the program in '99 those issues had been addressed. I know we had been looking at a digital replacement, but at the time there were issues with NVIS compatability.

Also want to state that since the referenced report did not specifically state the ADI was a factor, that this discussion in no way implies that it did and that the line of discussion is strictly in interest of the background history of this particular part of the A-10 seperate from the original point of this thread.

db


Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

There was a TCTO a few years ago that replace the ADI with a longer lasting, single piece unit unlike the old models. If you have questions about it email me gov email.