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Were bases like McCord, Shaw, and Moody just “hold over bases” for the A-10 while the AF found permanent homes for them after BRAC 89? I know the 89 closure list relied heavily on the fact the A-10s were headed to the bone yard but, after the AF decided to keep her a lot of the A-10s major bases were still on the closure list. Just looking at it from afar it looks like bases like these where just to hold the Hog until the infrastructure could be build to support them at other bases. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Also was Pope and Spang meant to be a permanent home for the Hawg from the start?

Ugly But Well Hung

Dice, who would I contact to get info on the McChord A-10's? I'm particularly interested in exercises they may have been involved with over the Yakima firing range.

Admit nothing...
Deny everything...
Make counter-accusations.

AAAAAHH, the good ol days when McChord had hawgs. They flew over me 15 times a day or more..... I do miss 'em!! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a GAU-8A at your side, kid...--Hawg Solo

_________________
\"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a GAU-8/A at your side, kid.\"--Hawg Solo

Dice, your theory would imply the AF had a plan for the Hog. The Hog has always been in "sundown" status since the mid-80's, which legally limited the amount of resources that could be applied in terms of modifications and improvements. That changed in late 2002 or 2003, when the AF realized they would have a serious iron problem in the twenty-teens, so they made some plans to help the Hog stay in service through the twenty-twenties. The commitment was very well recieved in the Hog community, but it will be seriously tested in the next few months. Watch the media closely as QDR is released to see what happens. McChord was a fall back for Moody, which filled up with F-16s in the wake of Hurricane Andrew, I don't think it was ever intended to be a permanent base. Pope was supposed to be long term, but things changed when the AF gave it and the C-130s back to AMC in 1997. The 23 FG has been on thin ice ever since.

Coach

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Dice, your theory would imply the AF had a plan for the Hog. The Hog has always been in "sundown" status since the mid-80's, which legally limited the amount of resources that could be applied in terms of modifications and improvements. That changed in late 2002 or 2003, when the AF realized they would have a serious iron problem in the twenty-teens, so they made some plans to help the Hog stay in service through the twenty-twenties.
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Thnaks for the reply Coach.

I understand the limit on upgrades but there were 100s of A-10s without homes, there had to be some type of "plan" to support these aircraft. I guess what I'm asking is...was Shaw, McChord, and Spang meant to be <b>the</b> fix or just temp until homes could be found, be that in active duty or the boneyard?

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The commitment was very well recieved in the Hog community, but it will be seriously tested in the next few months. Watch the media closely as QDR is released to see what happens.
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I understand what you're saying Coach. I know this money was well recieved but, don't know how well it was spent and managed at this point.

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McChord was a fall back for Moody, which filled up with F-16s in the wake of Hurricane Andrew, I don't think it was ever intended to be a permanent base.
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I think you mean Moody was the fall back for Shaw which filled-up with the F-16s after the hurricane. That's when we moved the A-10s from Shaw to Moody.

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Pope was supposed to be long term, but things changed when the AF gave it and the C-130s back to AMC in 1997. The 23 FG has been on thin ice ever since.

Coach

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But Pope was was a long-term home for the 23rd from the start?

Ugly But Well Hung

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Dice, who would I contact to get info on the McChord A-10's? I'm particularly interested in exercises they may have been involved with over the Yakima firing range.

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Not sure but I can ask around for ya.

Ugly But Well Hung

Spangdahlem came about after the USAF realised that they would still need some Hogs in Europe after withdrawing the 6 squadrons from the UK.
That was at the start of the 90's.
Purely from a selfish Hog watching point of view, it would be nice to have them at Lakenheath.....the 495th TFS HAS area is still vacant......

Dice,
After hurricane Andrew hit Homestead AFB FL Aug 1992, the 307th Stingers and 308th Emerald Knight Fighter Squadrons evactuated to Moody, which was already occupied by the 68th, 69th and 70th(F-16's). Only the 309th from Homestead went to SHAW. Moody was overcrowded with 16's from 92 thru 95. Moody transferred LANTIRN equipped F-16's to Aviano AB from what was the original 70th and 68th. The actual 308th FS was redesginated as the 68th. Soon the 69th was drawn down and the aircraft were transferred to Hill AFB. The 307th FS was redesigated the 69th FS. Both 307th and 308th Squadron designations were transferred to Luke AFB, along with 309th in 1994. Then Moody became a nonsense "composite wing", reactivated the 70th with A-10's and also brought in the 52nd with C-130's. Then 70th (1999), 69th (2000)and 68th (2000) began thier inactivation and transferred all aircraft and left Moody as a rescue and training wing.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The Hog has always been in "sundown" status since the mid-80's, which legally limited the amount of resources that could be applied in terms of modifications and improvements. That changed in late 2002 or 2003, <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

If I remember correctly what you are referring to in "sundown" status is when a weapon system's "life" has something like 10 or less years left on it. The A-10's life was put at 2028 back in the mid 90's.
Hog Up (or what ever it is called now)and PE and the money we committed to it started before 2002.
Monies spent for TCTOs, like to fix WS23, and others that were wrapped into Hog Up, that would have extended it's life would have dried up in the early 90's

Cheers
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

The life of the aircraft and how long we keep it in the inventory are two different things, DB. Money for PE was not fully committed until 2003 or 2004, only the research to see if it was feasible (risk reduction, SDD, etc). The Hog-Up was a program to preserve the life of the A-10s until a decision could be made, but SLEP was an extension of that program to take the airframe to a specified date of 2028. Different programs for different reasons.

Coach

OK, I understand the “sundowner” status of the aircraft and maybe I didn’t phrase my question the best. Even under the “sundowner” theory the aircraft were only half way through their 8,000 hour life-span (3,000-4,000 hours) following Desert Storm. With the current ops tempo (at the time) that would mean another decade of flying. I guess a better way to phrase the question would be “Was McChord and Shaw meant to house the A-10 sent there for the remainder of their anticipated life-span or, only a short period while a permanent (another) home was found for them?”

Now as far a Moody goes, if Moody was filling-up with F-16s following Andrew then why was the A-10 moved from Shaw to there in 95 only to be re-dispersed 3 years later?

Hog-up or SLEP1 are the same program and, as far as I know, has always been funded out of the same “pot” of money. This program is not being handled as an upgrade but as a repair. The name was changed because we almost got the funding pulled a number of times because the “higher-ups” keep getting “Hog-up” confused with “Falcon-up”. Falcon-up was/is an avionics upgrade and ours was/is a Life extension program.


Ugly But Well Hung

You are correct on the HOG-Up/SLEP debate.

The answer to your other question is simple...POLITICS. I don't believe there was (or is) a master plan for aircraft basing for the entire life span of a weapons system.

Coach

Dice, on the subject of Hogs from Shaw to Moody, most of the jets that went to Moody were in flyable storage at Shaw, not the 55th jets. Most of he 55th jets ended up at Pope. I left Shaw for Korea in mid '95 just as the flyable storage jets went to Moody. In the spring of '96 the 55th jets went to Pope after redeploying from Kuwait. I ended up at Moody in summer of '96 in the 70th with only a few of the Shaw jets ending up at Moody. Hitler, correct me if I'm wrong, you were in both squadrons too.

Mugs, you are correct the jets from McCord came to Shaw as a temporary storage and then where shipped off to Moody to become the 70th FS. As for the aircraft assigned to Shaw (55th) they become the 74th up at Pope.

Dice, Kungfu brought up something that might have something to do with some of the movement. All three bases (Moody, Pope and Shaw) where all designated as Composite Wings since that time the AF seems to have moved away from that idealology. Just a thought..

capche-capche da - we go forward together

Faugh ah Ballaugh -Clear The Way-

_________________


Faugh ah Ballaugh ~ Clear the Way

One squadron of jets that went into flyable storage at Shaw came from the 930th at Grissom.

And Dice like was said I really don't think our senior leadship had/has a clear plan.
As you know Moody was turned into a training base. After that happened I remember when I was at Langley they wanted to find a place for the 23rd because of the problems with operating out of Pope.
The logical choice would have been Moody, but they already gave it up to AETC.
Now look at what they want to do.
Idiots!!
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

Thanks guys, I guess you're right, it appears there was no real plan during this time.

Ugly But Well Hung

DB I dont think all the flyable storage jets at Shaw came from Grissom. I believe, and God knows someone will correct me if I'm wrong, Lil Hitler is right. At least some of those jets came from McChord. Hell I worked down there at flyable storage and cant remember exactly were the jets all came from. Somebody does, I'm sure.

Fender
"A woman drove me to drink
and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her".
W.C. Fields

DB,

If I remember correctly the aircraft that where in flyable storage at Shaw where made up of both McChord and Grissom jets. Moody also recieved a few aircraft from DM when we first started up.

capche-capche da - we go forward together

Faugh ah Ballaugh -Clear The Way-

_________________


Faugh ah Ballaugh ~ Clear the Way

For the record I never said all the jets at Shaw came from GUS.
I would assume there was a mix of jets.
As I remember, several from Mchord went to Osan.
And the transfer team from there started the fiasco with "stick play"
Cheers
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

You know the more I think about it that was a crazy crazy time in the A-10 world.
The Eielson unit drew down to 7 jets and transfered the rest to Battle Creek and Osan. We(GUS), retired our 76 & 77 models and received newer ones from USAFE and from England AFB when they drew down. Then less than two years later our unit closed down and sent out jets to Shaw and Eielson. Onezee and twozees moved around between different units. Mchord had A-10s for a short while then shipped them off to Shaw and Osan.
None of it made a lick of sense.
The only smart thing that was done was USAFE keeping all 82 models.
Cheers
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

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You know the more I think about it that was a crazy crazy time in the A-10 world.
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I have a listing of all the moves and as you say BD it was a crazy time. I guess when it comes down to it Coach is right there was no "plan" just reaction to external factors like BRAC and Andrew.

Ugly But Well Hung

hmm sounds familiar,

Or Plan is, We have no plan and by God where sticking to it!

capche-capche da - we go forward together

Faugh ah Ballaugh -Clear The Way-

_________________


Faugh ah Ballaugh ~ Clear the Way

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The only smart thing that was done was USAFE keeping all 82 models <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Spang haven't got all the 82's.

They don't now but they did then.
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret

Attrition replacements have not been 82's
db

Being responsible means sometimes pissing people off.
Gen Colin Powell ret