WT Forums

From a DoD document a fellow linked to me:

"In 2006, the A-10 Propulsion Upgrade Program will enter the system design and demonstration phase. This program will upgrade the A-10’s current TF34-100A engines to provide approximately 30% more thrust. This will help overcome some limitations that the A-10 faces when operating from expeditionary airfields at high field elevations and temperatures. It will also improve the A-10 performance at medium altitudes and increase its weapon load, thus improving survivability and more fully leveraging the capabilities of the Precision Engagement modification and ATPs."

(And another document) From this February 2006 DOD Budget Document :

"PROPULSION UPGRADE SYSTEMS DESIGN AND DEMONSTRATION (SDD)

In February 2004, the SECAF and CSAF validated the need for the A-10 Propulsion Upgrade. The Congressional add of $5.0M in FY05, mentioned above, was used to provide a ramp to the FY06 SDD effort. In FY06, SDD continued with development of the integration requirements and design work including development of the evaluation and test requirements as well test hardware. The Air Force will provide TF34-100A engines for the prototype effort.

<b>The FY07 Budget request authorizes $247M in APAF money to procure up to 110 TF-3400B engine kits."</b>

I can't believe i never heard about this. I thought there was no engine program in the pipeline?

At any rate.....excellent.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

Snipe,

I had heard the upgrade was cancelled. If this is true I WANT BACK ON THE PROGRAM ASAP. I was at Kelly when we went to the -100A and I want to be in on this too. I have the experience. Somebody PLEASE get me to Hill AFB...........

Engineguy

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget, in time, that men have died to win them."
Franklin Deleano Roosevelt

Hmmmm.

This is really the first i even heard of it at all.

Can anyone confirm the program is cancelled?

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

I also thought there was discussion on the cancellation of the program in the WT but, after doing a search, I couldn't find anything. Could have sworn that either Coach, Dice or Old Chief had said something about it. Guess I'm losing it. <img src=newicons/tard.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=newicons/bounce.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget, in time, that men have died to win them."
Franklin Deleano Roosevelt

SDD is funded, but no money is allocated to production. In other words, they will finish the design and put it on the shelf in cae money is available later. No flights are planned, as far as I know.

Coach

Engineguy, here's my understanding of the TF-34 upgrade program;

In a nutshell, the program wasn't cancelled, it just fell below the funding cut-off line which effectively killed it. What we're seeing now is additional funding, or, more accurately, a request for additional funding. Whether this comes to be remains a question.

BTW, you're not losing it, there was a short discussion about it but it wasn't the main topic so doing a search on engines probably wouldn't show anything.

OC

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints

Here's what GE says about the new engines:

http://www.geae.com/engines/military/tf ... ngine.html

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpo ... stcount=62

I got this from a guy i know that seems pretty in the loop about stuff.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...the A-10 with TF34-GE-101 engines can offload the F-16 Block 40/50 aircraft from close-air support missions and free these valuable assets to perform other critical tasks.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote> Anything that gets the Lawndart nose out from under our tent flap is worth the $$. IMHO, of course.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Any idea what this translates into for actual velocity increases?

The Second Amendment: America's original homeland security.
Ya just can’t take life too seriously, because you aren’t going to get out of it alive anyway.

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

More info from my anonymous informant:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpo ... stcount=64

I guess if anyone in Hogland wants to confirm the status of this program(or re-volunteer like engine guy), they should call:

Brent BERRETT
Phone : 777-6165
Mail : brent.berrett@hill.af.mil
__________________

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

Everyone,

Thanks for the info. Looks like this is a definate maybe, just like my Space programs now. Money is tight everywhere and we are doing funding and manpower cut "drills" all the time. Maybe my buddy "Fat Boy" Peters has some info even though he moved over to T37's & T-38's after 25 years on the Hog. As I recall, Mr. Barrett is the A-10 SPO Director or Deputy Director. Anyway, I'll check around. Thanks again.
Engineguy

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget, in time, that men have died to win them."
Franklin Deleano Roosevelt

Keep us updated bro.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

My good buddy "Fat Boy" says "The program was put on hold or cancelled depending on who you talk to. They need the money to pay for new wings." No matter, I'm still trying to get transferred to Hill but REALLY want to work the A-10. I can be picky and wait for the right job to come up then hope I get it. Like Snipes' anonymous informant says, "Should you guys consider this engine upgrade highly desirable, all you have to do is beat the drum as loud as you can and above all find yourself some solid sponsors in Congress." Guess I should do some really creative writing, eh?


"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget, in time, that men have died to win them."
Franklin Deleano Roosevelt

It most certainly wouldn't hurt.

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

engineguy, what kind of work are you hoping to get into at Hill?

<img src="http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/457/bgnrjsiiw81q1gc.jpg" border=0>

Gravity....its not just a good idea, its the law.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Any idea what this translates into for actual velocity increases? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Very little 30MM. That's been one of the huge sticking points with the multi-zipper types. What this upgrade does is allow rated thrust at a greater range of temperatures and altitudes.

OC

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints

Ah, go slow higher; work harder slow. I get it.

The Second Amendment: America's original homeland security.
Ya just can’t take life too seriously, because you aren’t going to get out of it alive anyway.

_________________
\"Those who hammer their guns into plows
will plow for those who do not.\"
- Thomas Jefferson

M&M,

I was a TF34 Equipment Specialist at Kelly AFB for 15 years (after 12 years active duty. See my profile) Now I'm a Logistics Management Specialist/Program Manager on the Command and Control Segment of the Air Force Satellite Control Network. (Cool title eh?). I'd do just about anything as long as it's back on aircraft and I stay in the GS ranks. I still enjoy maintenance work but not as a full time job. Would like to get to Hill because there's aircraft there and my Sons and Grandkids are there. If the PUP goes through, I'd really enjoy working that program as I was involved in the upgrade to the -100A and think it would be great to be involved in the upgrade to the -100B. Also, the SPO could probably use someone with A-10 engine experience to keep those engine toads at Tinker in line. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Engineguy

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget, in time, that men have died to win them."
Franklin Deleano Roosevelt

30mm: It will supposedly double the turn rate and allow something like a 30% climbrate increase.(so the AF says)

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

Turn rate is a function of G's and true airspeed...the proposed engine upgrade will not significantly increase airspeed and turn performance is not improved either. With the marginal improvement in thrust, there may be a marginal improvement in sustained turn performance. No where near double and not anywhere close to being worth the $1.9B program cost. Wing replacement is the #1 priority, #2 is way behind...no wings, no Hogs.

There is a lot of salesmanship BS associated with the engine upgrade program. Be careful what you repeat and take everything with a grain of salt. This program is nothing more than a powerpoint slide show right now.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>


There is a lot of salesmanship BS associated with the engine upgrade program. Be careful what you repeat and take everything with a grain of salt. This program is nothing more than a powerpoint slide show right now.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Amen to that Coach.

Visit my A-10 website at
http://www.warthogpen.com

I thought the Hog-up wing fixes were all completed by now.

Dice?

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

Not quite, the problem is the Hog-Up repairs proved to be not quite as effective as planned for the thin-skinned outer panel portion of the fleet (242 of 356 aircraft). So, in order to avoid more frequent, massively expensive and time consuming inspections to keep the fleet flying, it is more economical to just replace the entire wing.

Coach

Ah OK, thanx a lot Coach. I've really let my hog current events slip over the last year.

Bad, bad administrator.

Three questions:

How far are they into the new program?
How many of the unaffected 'thick skin' planes were still in service when we realized we still had a problem?
What's involved in the new fix?(when i was out visiting dice i saw hog-up wings being put together, which was very cool!)

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/HogTeethabstract.jpg" border=0>
<b>"US Snipers...Providing surgical strikes since 1776"</b>

Answers:

They have not started the new program yet, funding begins in late FY07 to begin buying the wings. The first jets to hit 13,000 hours are the ones that are driving the schedule. Install will begin in FY10 I think. There is a 3-year lead time to have the new wings built up.

There are 104 thick skin aircraft in service, they do not need any exceptional maintenance to keep them flying. Periodic inspections will do the trick.

The fix is a completly new wing. Everything will be included (wires, flight controls, etc.), so you drop the old one and put the new one on. Not sure about pylons, I think the old ones are put on the new wings. The wiring will be PE as well.

A Hog-Up wing is different, that is the original wing (or one from another jet) that is reinforced at the wing station 24 to support the structure.

Hope this helps.

Coach