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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2003, 18:57 
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003, 15:00
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I was just reading about the F-22 and it got me thinking. The article said that the F-22 will track targets while remaining unseen. Before firing the missile, how do they get a lock without illuminating the enemy with radar?

~Thud


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2003, 19:06 
Flyout mode. The AMRAAM is launched passively to a predetermined point and activates it's terminal seeker upon arrival to 'look' for the target. I believe it can be updated in flight via a digital data link with data from the host fighter's JTIDS link.

That's what the articles say anyway.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2003, 20:04 
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WOW that's cool.

~Thud


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2003, 21:04 
THe F-14D can do the same thing with Phownix missiles to range beyond 100 miles.

That's REALLY cool ;)

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2003, 10:47 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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You can Slave Guidance to Radar or Uncage (autonomous guidance)

But shareing of 1 missile over 2 platforms for guidance is not what is desined into the current aim-120.

The datelink shares contacts amongst a group on the RADAR TWS display. This is what is currently used with AWACs platforms today.

What it does do is allow the Aircrews in flight communicate through the silent comms and datalink transfer to not give off "Detectable transmissions"

LOW RCS means nothing if you have no SIGint deception. a GCI center can Triangulate your Posit from the Open Electronic noise the radios create, Thus vectoring Counter Air assets to your location.

Now the higher radiation Pulses hitting the TGT does enhance the ability for Active/semi Active Missiles that are programmed to our radar frequencies To hit their target. IE radiating the Bandit from differnt aspect angles. Multiple aircrews flooding the same tgt.

The aim 120 does have its own Active radar set that is Broad. Essentially it floods the area of discretion in which the Launch vehicle updates to it. Or it can run autonomousely at a given range away from launch aircraft "limits fratricide". What it will do is fly a zig zag course floading a wider range to pick up a contact then. It will discriminate that contact and lead pursue it for a higher PK.



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2003, 13:12 
Thanx Mudd, good technical description.


Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2003, 22:28 
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Joined: 23 Dec 2002, 08:13
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Mr Mudd,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>But shareing of 1 missile over 2 platforms for guidance is not what is desined into the current aim-120<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I was around here at Sheppard for a presentation from some Strike Eagle guys who had camera footage from Afghanistan as well as stuff from their new FDL that contradicts your statement above. They showed an example of lead locking a target then slaving one of his wingman's missiles to that target. So, unless I am misunderstanding the terminology you are using, according to the beagle dudes that got to use it, the new FDL allows for "sharing of one missile over 2 platforms for guidance"


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2003, 23:18 
Mudd's been out a while Luke, and besides, he's kinda dumb, lol.

Thanx for the insights.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 08:15 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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I flew the Mudhen till 98. If it is a new system, then i am unaware of it. Their is allot of technology that was slated for our airframe that had not arrived or was not in service for the airframe. Link16.

The system you are describing is the Lead Locking the TGT, Deploying Tactics with his Wingman to be the shooter and to get a better aspect angle to the target, And shareing TDC info with the Shooter. This is a capability that has been around for some time. Esentially the shooter is Snoozed and not giving off emmisions. This causes the Bandit to Go after the Lead and the Wingman Broadsides the Bandit. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

My reference is that only the orign aircraft has link with the ordnance.



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 08:36 
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The Beagles got the FDL (JTIDS capable link16) right after sept 11. They were supposed to get the system slowly (a couple of months per jet) but after sept 11 they suddenly got the funding and ALL of the operational jets at Seymour had the system within 30 days.

The way they described the datalink as discussed here is that the wingman's missile could be slaved to lead's radar. Either way it is pretty nifty!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 10:54 
Yup, nothing like an unfair advantadge :)

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:00 
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Yup...........really cool stuff. F-14's have been able to do this with the AIM-54 for years. This really creates awesome capabilities where tacitcs are concerned.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:06 
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The Apache-Kiowa System to me is the best in the World.

Unfortunately the army Fights a 2D war and we Fight a 3D war.

Radar can be spoofed. It will be some time before we recieve a true "litoral badguy killer system" In the mean time its the Noodle behind the stick that makes it count.

What the sytems of today do is pin the tail on the invisible donkey. I refer to it as a KKK Clansman caught walking through Downtown New York ... Guaranteed to get a Multi-Ethnic Lynching.

Much of What JSTARS and The Army Systems do with the Ground order of Battle.

Technology is not for wimps.<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>



"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:21 
Kiowa's are spooky opponents.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:26 
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Joined: 05 Oct 2002, 14:59
Posts: 2779
You know from experience, right Snipe?

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -General George Patton


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 11:49 
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Joined: 05 Oct 2002, 14:22
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Location: Missouri
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Kiowa's are spooky opponents.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I seem to remember a certain weed dweller getting surprised by a Warrior,LOL darn those MMS's lol

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us". George Orwell

Fighting For Justice With Brains Of Steel !
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 12:58 
Yup.

More than once too.

Oh well, we gave as good as we got ;)

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 14:00 
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003, 20:16
Posts: 116
M21 hit the nail on the head. One F-22 (APG-73) will fly in the lead of a trail formation, the rear F-22 will fly high cover above and behind the first F-22. Via JTIDS and some new software exclusive to the F-22 he can send the needed information to get a firing solution to the first F-22 without F-22(1) ever having to turn his radar on... its a great system, especially with the capabilities of the APG-73...I wonder how well the AESA would compare.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 14:06 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
M21 hit the nail on the head. One F-22 (APG-73) will fly in the lead of a trail formation, the rear F-22 will fly high cover above and behind the first F-22. Via JTIDS and some new software exclusive to the F-22 he can send the needed information to get a firing solution to the first F-22 without F-22(1) ever having to turn his radar on... its a great system, especially with the capabilities of the APG-73...I wonder how well the AESA would compare.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Buzz Are you kidding? their is absolutely no point in a BVR engagement of what you described.

the whole purpose of the Shared engagement is not to have all your assets fly down the barrel of a gun.

You truly are misguided....




"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 14:51 
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003, 20:16
Posts: 116
Mudd,

Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote closely enough.... this theoretical situation only involves 2 F-22s and the lead isn't compromised because his radar is off. His wingman, flying x many miles behind him does have his radar on, however, and sends the needed information for AMRAAM lock up to the flight lead via JTIDS... I actually heard this from an Air Force Major (F-15 driver) ... so my source is credible... in other words either you're mistaken or the Eagle Driver is misguided, you choose.

"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 16:50 
Buzz, F-22 radar is the APG-77 bud. ;)

It is also important to note that the APG-77 is a Low Probability of Intercept radar and will be very hard to counterdetect even when it is operating at full power.

If the USAF decides to mate a LR AAM to the F-22 they will have an aircraft that will dominate for decades, IMHO.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 16:51 
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003, 20:16
Posts: 116
77? yikes, I must be having a bad day... thats what 19 quarter units and a part time job will do to yah, thanks for the info.



"The cost of peace is eternal vigilance". -Thomas Jefferson


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2003, 16:55 
Anytime Buzz.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2003, 09:41 
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002, 20:45
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Mudd,

Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote closely enough.... this theoretical situation only involves 2 F-22s and the lead isn't compromised because his radar is off. His wingman, flying x many miles behind him does have his radar on, however, and sends the needed information for AMRAAM lock up to the flight lead via JTIDS... I actually heard this from an Air Force Major (F-15 driver) ... so my source is credible... in other words either you're mistaken or the Eagle Driver is misguided, you choose.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> Weve already established what an ignorant little troll you are.

Your Source is pittifully wrong and I hope hes not a real Flight lead. because he just roasted his wingman. AWACs has a larger picture and resolution than any fighter we have fielded. their would be no need for eather of them to hunt Actively.

2 ship Ladder intercept with the trail active is extremely a weak tactic. in the BVR ROLE. Russian Aircraft Hunt Passively and deploy ping intercepts to get you turning and burning. Then they hunt your heat signature. Then they fire an Active to get you manuevering with a heater shortly after. You hopefully have defeated the Active missile, But now you ate the Heater. Bye bye 1stLt. Smukateli. Now the Tactically stupid major is alone and in a furball...its only a matter of time before he eats a missile or a gun track.





"Your presence on WT is like an odor dude, you need to unleash.. -Brewski"


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2003, 12:53 
Mudd, when Buzz's facts catch up to his confidence he should be OK ;)

Where you been hiding ya weasel, i havn't seen ya on IM in over a week?

Buzz me bro.

Later.

Long distance- The next best thing to being there.


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